The Intercessor

You can pray “God, I surrender my agenda” and mean it with your whole heart, then wake up the next morning to interruptions that feel like chaos. We’ve lived that gap between intention and reality, and it’s exactly where the spiritual life gets honest.  

Union with Christ is an unfolding reality to receive. A revelation in process. That single shift changes everything: how we hear God, how we relate to Jesus, and why worship can be both the right response and the overflow of being loved. 

Then we turn toward the role of the intercessor. We define intercession as choosing to carry a burden that isn’t technically yours, standing in the gap for people, communities, and even regions that are experiencing injustice or spiritual resistance. Ezekiel’s call to “stand in the breach” gives language to what God looks for in his friends, and Hebrews 7 anchors it in Jesus, the great intercessor who continues to work.

 
Intercession is at the heart of the church’s mission: prayer that becomes action, heaven touching earth, and Acts 10:38 as a practical template for doing good and setting captives free. 

If this conversation helps you rethink prayer, intercession, and hearing God in daily life, subscribe, share it with a friend, and leave a review so more people can find the show.

Transcript

Welcome To Hearing God

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to the Hearing God Podcast. I'm Anthony Moore. And I'm Dan Lamus. For over a decade, Anthony and I have been diving deep into weekly conversations about the prophetic, the mystical, and the matters of the heart.

SPEAKER_04 0:15

And we invite you into these weekly conversations. We hope you feel like an honored guest at our table.

SPEAKER_01 0:21

So pull up a chair, settle in, and let's get started. Well, here we are. Here we are. Yeah. Yes.

The Dangerous Prayer Of Surrender

SPEAKER_01 0:31

Okay, so how's it going, Dan? It's going well. Yeah. Yeah. I'm I'm in one of those uh zones, it feels like right now, where um, I don't know, maybe a week or two ago, I prayed that dangerous prayer that always like you halfway think about when you pray it. You mean it wholeheartedly, which is God, I surrender my agenda to you. Uh I won't sweep me up in your I think my very words in my journal were sweep me up in your agenda. Yeah. What a poetic way to say it. What a poetic way to say mess mess my life up, God. But then mess up my schedule. And uh so I find myself doing the wrestle of wow, I feel like I'm chasing my tail around a little bit. And then I kind of take a deep breath and say, God, you you know, you got me, you you've you've got me here. Um, I I do want to tune into your agenda. And so I've just been in that zone. So there's joy, but I'm also recognized once again the wisdom of uh yeah, count the cost. Yeah. If you uh if you are if you're ready to say, God, I surrender my agenda to you, then he's probably gonna show up in interruptions. He's gonna he's going to uh uh land you in places where you're what you had planned out doesn't quite work the way you expected. Yeah, but God's also doing some real cool things in the midst of that. So I'm grateful, thankful.

SPEAKER_04 2:06

Uh that's

Books That Reframe The Heart

SPEAKER_04 2:07

good. I uh I think I found myself uh hopefully most people know who John Eldridge is. I I have been really enjoying his books of late. Uh he wrote one like sort of I don't know. Uh he wrote he wrote one last year, released one called Experiencing Jesus Really, which which is really a highly recommended uh and way down sort of, I know for sure, your your alley and my alley. We are ordinary mystics. Yeah, yeah, ordinary mystics. And uh then he wrote one before that um called uh resilient. And it was really great. Uh they're really great sort of heart level books that are really take really honest looks at the state of our heart and uh sort of just uh acknowledging, he does a great job of acknowledging, you know, how wounded our hearts sometimes get, and then the process of walking through healing and freedom. Right. And he's very much in that, like he quotes and he says her name wrong uh in the audiobook several times, but uh because and it's simply because he's American and she's French, and so from our context, we would get that a little bit more. But her name was Jean Guillon. Okay, yeah, and I think he calls her Madame Guillaume or something like that. Um, but uh she she wrote this book. Lady G. Yeah, Lady G. Uh she wrote this book. Yeah, that's right. You're American, you only partially understand. You've only been here before you're you've actually been more in more in Canada than you have in America. So it doesn't matter. So, but she wrote uh she wrote this book, I don't know, 300 years ago or more, uh called Experiencing the Depths of Jesus Christ. And that was a bit of a when I read that book, it was a bit of a I remember when you were reading it. It was years ago. Oh yeah, it was it was quite some time ago. I'm gonna guess uh I'm gonna say eight to ten years ago, probably maybe somewhere in the in around there.

Stillness Over Constant Asking

SPEAKER_04 4:23

Um and it was kind of like this watershed moment in my life where it kind of opened my eyes to uh the I guess a deeper invitation of union with Christ. I'll say that again and it it sort of fleshes it out itself out in a way that really has transformed the way that I pray, specifically in uh specifically in my time with the Lord. Uh it has renovated how um how little I ask for stuff in my in my secret you know, secret place uh or time with the Lord. You know, I have just made it and and not to say that this is perfect, but I mean there's a there's a few ways that I unpack this for people. It's really been this place of of number one of of stillness, uh it's number number two adoration and worship. I guess you could put those two in there together, and and and then a little bit uh gratitude, uh just thanksgiving. So in that that sort of, you know, as a conscious choice, I go into those moments uh ultimately to be with the Lord for something for for for reasons other than uh asking for things. Yes. And so I've just found that that has been a profound and you know, a profound, it just it just has changed me and my sort of how I view that prayer space. You know, I I kind of I kind of likened it to this. This is the example I I get with people. I don't maybe I've I feel like I might have said this on an earlier episode, maybe last year or something like that. But if I have a friend and that friend always, you know, we go to dinner and that friend always buys, right? Right. Well then the lines sort of start to blur as to why that person's my friend, right? The line blurs am I that, you know, am I that person's friend because I enjoy their company or because they just buy everything?

SPEAKER_03 6:46

Right.

SPEAKER_04 6:46

And so for me, I never I can get that way with the Lord, but I never want that it to be that way in my relationship with God. Because, you know, as a believer, you know, even according to his word, he is the source of all, you know, every good and perfect gift comes from the Father of Light. So he's the source of everything that you and I and every human could ever need that's actually life-giving, you know, that's that's good for us, that's perfect for us. And so, so he's the source already of that. And and he does invite the request. I mean, there's yeah, you know, he just says, You have not because you ask not. And so he invites, he's like, cast all your cares on me. So he invites that portion of it.

SPEAKER_03 7:35

Right.

SPEAKER_04 7:35

Um, and you know, and again, I think there's uh I can't remember somewhere in Jeremiah. Here, here, here, here we go with the references again. Somewhere in Jeremiah, he actually talks about delighting in providing for his people. Right. And he is Jehovah Jirah. So, so I'm not, I'm not, um, I'm not removing that part, like asking the Lord for things. I'm not removing that part from my life. It's just that there's plenty of time for that. There's like there's there's the rest of all the other time that I ask, there's praying for you know for people on Sundays, there's you know, any other time that we, you know, through conversation or coffee or whatever, where prayer requests come in. There's me, you know, driving alone in my car, coming up and just just asking the Lord for things.

SPEAKER_01 8:24

But yeah, well, you know, like when you when you a couple things you said really intrigued me.

Union With Jesus As Invitation

SPEAKER_01 8:29

Uh, one is when we talk about you union with Jesus, you know, um that there's a way you could look at that and see it as that's a requirement. I have to get to union with Jesus. So it becomes a project for me, right? As opposed to I've been invited into that. Yes, I've been invited into union with Jesus. And if in those times when I surrender to this is what Jesus wants, this is what Jesus is providing, yeah. He's made it all possible for me to be in union with him, and he wants that. And I accept that invitation in those times that I'm really awake to that, it does awaken adoration. And that's the other part I just wanted to really agree and affirm in what you said is that I because we were talking about adoration and worship kind of being to you know, they are very connected and similar, and yet there's something in the way you were describing the process that I feel like when you when you really do accept Jesus' invitation to union with him, it's overwhelming. And adoration is a natural response. Like you're something deep within us, our our inner being reacts to that and responds with adoration. It's a love love in return for him.

SPEAKER_04 9:56

And I wonder if it's like I I mean maybe I'm splitting hairs a little bit, but like worship may sort of comes out of what we value, and maybe adoration comes out of our our loves, right? Like the mutual experience. And I and maybe I I don't know, I'm not making any theological statement, I'm just sort of chewing on it out loud. But like when we worship, we're sit, we're we're you know, again, we we've said this before, worship isn't just you know, singing a song or making a declaration. It is it's what we do with our money, it's what we do with our time. We're actually expressing value practically and and at times verbally with our with our with our whole lives. We're declaring the supreme value of the Lord, you know, and maybe and maybe maybe that's so so I maybe I could say worship is an expression of our values and where we have uh you know, where we have our values, but maybe adoration is sort of out of an overflow of of where our where the where where the heart where the love components, yeah, you know, what's what our heart, you know, it's a it's an expression of the heart as opposed to maybe value. Something I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 11:12

Well it's it's there's there's a part of that to me, it's like when you know I read uh scripture like every knee will bow, those in heaven, those on the earth, those under the earth. You know, every knee will bow to Jesus the Lord. Out of Philippians 2, I believe. Uh that that feels to me like uh worshiping, giving glory to Jesus because it is right. You know, I love to do it, but it's also right. It's like it there's a there's a part of worship that is just always appropriate, regardless of what's moving your heart. Yeah, but there is definitely a depth of of knowing and enjoying Jesus where it's a it's a mutual flowing back and forth of adoration, it's experiencing one another that is available to believers. I guess that's what I wanted to press in on a little bit to say that uh it affects like I've watched it in your life. I watched that as we've shared many times in conversation and just doing life around here, the the difference in prayer, even when it's when it's moving from the we're here because we're supposed to be and it's right. Yeah, and God's commanded and led us to do this. Yes, that's that's amazing, and he meets us in that. But then we've been in many times where we go somewhere and worship where we only got there because we are we're experiencing Jesus' affection for us, his embrace of us. Uh, there was something I was gonna mention there. I hope I can just grab it again real quick. But um again, just on the union with Jesus thing is is uh a big shift happened for me along those lines when I moved from I need to achieve union with him to I need to surrender to it. Right.

SPEAKER_04 13:08

And it is in Christ, it is a reality that currently exists. Right. We have we just simply uh are growing in our experience of it, our understanding of it and our revelation of it.

SPEAKER_03 13:24

Right.

SPEAKER_04 13:24

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just think I think I mean, yeah, so I think you know, from that perspective, like I I found that that I was just to encourage anybody, I mean it's a little bit old-fashioned in its language, but there are those. I there's a there's a book, um, you know, so anyway, before I move on, like I I really I I think the the book itself, it's a little old-fashioned, and obviously it's translated, it was written by a French mystic, so it was originally written in French and then translated a number of years ago into English. And but also um just along the Eldridge line. Eldridge is very much, John Eldridge is very much along the lines of a you know, someone who has a sort of mystical worldview. The other one, uh just to throw out there, if people are looking for recommendations, is uh a book called Sacred Rhythms by someone, I think her name is Ruth Haley Barton. Right. Yeah. And that is also very much, we're all though all those authors are sort of hovering around the same sort of or drinking from the same well, as we might say, uh, with that sort of mystical, mystical worldview. But I just say I say that to say that to encourage you, if you're looking, uh if you're looking for something, if you're hungry for something that is way more heart, way more relational, less transactional than then

Adoration Versus Worship

SPEAKER_04 14:50

I would just highly recommend it, you know, just going down that path and seeing what the Lord might have for you. Because I think ultimately, I think ultimately the Lord uh the like knowing God means that you because we were all meant and we were all created with a mystical gear, whether we admit it or not, because we're all made in the image of God. Yeah. So there is a we're all we're all have a spirit component to us, like that's part of who we are, body, body, soul, and spirit. And so just to say that like like whether or not we admit it, there is a mystical part. And if we have a mystical part, it's because God gave us gave it to us. Right. And also, if we have a mystical part, it means that God himself wants to know us on that level. Right. Yeah. So yeah, so if he wants to know us on on the other levels, he definitely wants to know us on a mystical level. We can we can see that in you know, First Corinthians two, and this is I'm sure we've said this many times before about my mind was about our earthquake. Yeah, about our spirits being commingled with his. Right. Right. It means it means we are somehow what whatever you like, you know, again, I have not seen my spirit, uh, although I am aware it exists. And yet to to you know, to use that uh language of co-mingled, it almost means to me like uh it's like taking red Kool-Aid and blue Kool-Aid and mixing them together. Right. And then you're never able to get them apart.

SPEAKER_01 16:38

Okay, I get you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 16:39

It's like so you get purple, but you get, but you get, but you're never intended for you to pull the blue out of that again. Right, yeah. Or the the red out of that again. So you're you're that's what I that's what I've confusion or that's the image, that's the imagery that comes to mind when I hear that word coming on. So so I'm so like, like you and I are so joined to the Father through Christ by the Spirit to work that one out completely. But just we're so joined to the Lord in what he has done on the cross and the presence of the Holy Spirit in our life that it's never meant to come untangled. Right. Like it's never, it's never, it's not that's not the design. The design is for you for eternal union with God through Christ. Yeah, or in Christ, yes, through Christ and in Christ. So, so it's like that's the reality that we currently live in. So I I'm probably getting we've I'm sure we've covered this stuff before, but I just I think my from a from a prayer life perspective, I would just highly encourage people to create at least some space in your life where we where we don't ask them for things. We just come and and know. Like a friend doesn't always ask for things. A friend wants to know things about the other friend without any strings attached. Yeah. Right. And so that I mean to me, that's friendship, that's relationship with God is always coming to him, sort of rooted in just enjoying like you that's the enjoyment. I get to enjoy the proximity of the Lord. Yes, right, right.

SPEAKER_01 18:30

I get to regardless of circumstances, regardless of circumstances. That's so key.

SPEAKER_04 18:34

Like it's and and it's like I would just encourage people to just like give give yourself give yourself to that space and just see what the Lord does in your life. Because it's been truly transformative for me for for sure. Uh, and it has like anyway, it has really transformed and shaped the last, I don't know, 10 or so years. Yeah, I love that. Um, and so, but you know, uh kind of like that is that runs in line a little bit where uh where we wanted to sort of go today. Yeah.

Defining Intercession With Clarity

SPEAKER_04 19:05

Because I think uh one of the things uh that we haven't talked about so much is the role of the intercessor. Right. And I know we've talked about prayer a lot, um, just that conversation with Lord the the Lord, um, but we haven't actually spoken about intercession.

SPEAKER_03 19:24

Right.

SPEAKER_04 19:24

Um, and so maybe uh maybe I don't know how that hits you, Dan. Maybe I'll just throw it out over to you and let you let you riff on that for a bit. Like what is what is what does the intercessor mean to you that's that maybe is slightly different from slightly different from prayer? Because I know that there's lots of overlap and they're very close cousins. Right. So yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:46

Uh I think basically to me, intercession is about stepping in intentionally to be of assistance to someone else that taking on taking on uh solving a problem or getting uh someone help when you don't have to. You're choosing to step in and actually being of service uh and it's probably gonna cost you some sort of sacrificial effort to help them. Time, energy, yeah, resources. Yeah, so it gets applied to prayer. It's probably a bigger subject than prayer, but yeah, but it does get applied in you know the your practices of prayer from time to time.

SPEAKER_04 20:33

Maybe it's a maybe it's a unique expression of prayer.

SPEAKER_01 20:36

Right, yeah, yeah. And it often has to do with uh, you know, a person in an unjust situation, they're experiencing a lot of injustice. And so you're you're in prayer, you're taking their concern on, and you're uh you're uh it you're asking God to remember them and to reach out and touch them when you don't have to take that responsibility on, but you're doing it willingly. Um, and it could also be that you are actually doing spiritual warfare uh for the sake of intercession. You know, this person's in a horrible situation and you're praying for the atmosphere around them that bitterness would not get the best of them, that they would have the heart of Jesus, they would be willing to forgive when uh forgiving would be very difficult. You're praying for their heart to be responsive to God in the right way, but you're taking on something you don't have to. Right. And you're it's not really your problem, but you're taking it on in prayer as something you deeply care about.

SPEAKER_04 21:40

And then something from like you're sort of describing you, you you see a need in front of you, but yet you're you're not you're sort of this intermediary, right? Yes, so between maybe the will, the plans, and the purposes of God, right? You're saying, I'm going to go to the Lord on your Behalf and pray that his will, his, his will be done, his resources be provided.

SPEAKER_01 22:07

We want this to happen for this other person. Yes. Like you're yeah, that that's it. And I also think intercession is um, oh dear, I've lost my train of thought there. But yes, let's just stick with that for a second. Just just the think of I see my friend, I see the the thing you're in.

SPEAKER_04 22:27

Yeah, I recognize that it's not uh in alignment with the will of God. Right. The the or we we would say it's not it's not heavenly, it's not it's not like your kingdom come, your will be done on earth is in heaven. It doesn't fit that descriptor. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:44

Yeah. Some in some way you're being you're you're bound, in some way you're being deceived, in some way you're being treated unjustly, or whatever. So I am gonna go to the Lord on your behalf and and you know, ask him for wisdom, ask him for grace, ask for provision that you didn't expect. Ask for soft-heartedness on behalf of this person that's been treating badly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's that's intercession is putting yourself out intentionally, yeah, so that you're taking on a burden of for someone, you know, of someone else's issue.

SPEAKER_04 23:19

And and I would say just to kind of like expand that a little bit more, it's it's also works on dimensions other than our personal, right? So we would at times and have at times uh you know seen needs within the community or needs within the region or maybe even the nation, and have gone in prayer, you know, to the Lord on behalf of that specific need. Right. Right? Yes. So it's not just it's not just like a person-to-person kind of thing, although it is that, of course. The the intercession is just the role, right? That that that's placed, but it's also a regional, it's also could be a community need, it could be uh families, whatever, a group of people, whatever. Right, yeah. Oh, right.

SPEAKER_01 24:07

So I'll grab back that the thing just came around. Excellent. And it's the subtle difference between intercession isn't so much something we do for God, intercession is more something we do with God.

SPEAKER_04 24:19

Yeah, that's great. That's a great way to put that.

SPEAKER_01 24:22

That we are yeah, that we are picking up on, like just using say, say, an issue in the nation or the region geographically. We have a sense of what God wants from scripture, and then we're looking at the very circumstances, that mixture that happens, that wow, God really wants to see something shift and change in that area. And we're saying, God, we're on earth asking for your will to be done, your kingdom to come on earth as it is in heaven, because this really matters to you. My main reason for asking for this, God, is because I know it matters to you. So in that sense, I'm interceding with you for things to happen on earth. Right. Yeah.

Ezekiel And Standing In The Breach

SPEAKER_04 25:07

So I there's there's two uh scripture verses that we're sort of like rooting this foundation upon. So just let me read, let me read one. Because there's actually like if we read uh the book of Ezekiel, there's a scripture verse in in tying this all together to like hearing God, uh you know, living a prophetic life. Uh Ezekiel 13, verse 5 says, You have, you know, it's this criticism that, or even it's not just criticism, it's sort of this judgment that that the Lord is bringing against the prophets. Diagnostic evaluation as against uh against the prophets of Israel, uh ultimately false prophets. Yes, where you know he he calls them out and says this in verse five you have not gone up into the breaches or built up a wall for the house of Israel that it might stand in the day of the Lord, stand in battle in the day of the Lord. So it's like uh he's like um in layman's terms, he's like, you know, guys, there are gaps in the wall. Yeah. There are there are gaps in the you know, in the defenses of the nation of Israel. Right, right, yeah, and you have you have completely missed that. Right, right. And so for and this was, you know, if if the Lord's criticism against this group of people, the prophets of Israel, it means that that was actually an assignment for them, yeah, is to stand watch as you know, we could again like as watchmen over the nation of Israel, right to say, where are the gaps? Where are the gaps in the walls? Where's the where's where are the weaknesses and the defenses? Yeah, right. And so so if this was a criticism, then it was an expectation. This was something that the Lord was looking for from his prophets, right? And and it says uh again, and just uh the second ver uh verse is from Ezekiel 22, and it says, And I sought for a man among them who should build up the wall and stand in the breach before me for the land that I should not destroy it, but I found none. And so this is this is the Lord going, this is the look, the Lord looking for an intercessor, a prophetic, you know, an intercessor, someone to stand in the gap, literally, literally, yeah uh in this uh in this occasion, but like from our perspective, the invitation from the believer, uh, and the the believer, because this is the nature of a new covenant prophetic person, yeah, is ones that will will have a friendship with God and God will share things with them. Right. So and then even and and even specifically, what do we pray for? Right. Where are the gaps in, you know, as as the church uh existing and growing and as the kingdom of God advancing in our cities, our region, and our nation.

SPEAKER_01 28:10

Right.

SPEAKER_04 28:11

God, where are the gaps? Right. And so that's that's an there's an invitation to a conversation for people who want to grow and hear the Lord. Again, prophetic people, prophets, whatever you want to call us. There's an invitation that we can see here that this is something that the Lord is looking for from his people. Wow. Right. And so it's like, so and and we do this all the time, right? So we would pray, we have prayed, you know, uh, for our city from a poverty perspective, from from a blessing and prosperity perspective. We've prayed for our nation from a justice perspective. We have we've we've prayed for these elements. And I guess what uh what I guess I'm maybe I'll just uh just to say uh Dan, how's that how's that hitting you as well? I've kind of talked here for a little bit. Well that's I I'm kind of th I've thrown a lot out.

SPEAKER_01 29:05

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. The um boy, what a uh what what an interesting what an interesting dynamic uh to say here in 2026 that that God is still working this same strategy. Yeah. That like you said, the new covenant prophetic intercessor, the idea that that God would God would still be uh still be requiring, um still have an expectation of his friends, you know, his the prophets are are oftentimes in scripture referred to as the friends of God, you know, people like he he will want to share his heart, he'll want to share his uh deep concerns with so that they would join join with join with him and taking on those concerns. Um but but the idea that God isn't just gonna go ahead and take care of things, right? But that part of the way he takes care of things is coming to his intercessors who who have said, I'm available to you, Lord. He says, Good.

SPEAKER_04 30:18

Which is here's which is every believer, by the way. The ex the invitation has been extended to every believer, yeah. Right? Not just the people who pray good.

SPEAKER_01 30:27

Yes, okay, yeah. Okay, thank you. Yes, yeah. Good good distinction to make. We as intercessors, the people of God, that he's saying, Good, I do have some concerns. I need you to be aware of. So I need you, I need you to pay attention to this and to that. Uh, you know, there's something behind what's going on in your region, and I'm and I'm and I'm wanting you to be aware of it. Like, say it's a a poverty spirit or perhaps uh uh a real inferiority kind of spirit that won't receive a big call from God. Uh we don't expect big things from God through us because we're just people who could never actually rise to that and be used by God mightily. Okay, he may want to inspire intercessors to actually pray into that and declare, declare no, like that that attitude won't do in this region. Yeah, but God is calling for the church to be bold, to receive a big call from him and to do to expect him for big things. But the inner like the the standing in the gap might be joining together, and I will not accept the fact that that's appropriate in the region. Right. So God, we call out for boldness. We have to have boldness, God. Right. We need we need to see a a the church hum, you know, humbling themselves before you and saying, God, we we we throw away our false humility and we will rise up and you know, whatever you call us to, we will not shy away. We'll boldly go into it. And and we're saying, as long as it takes for us to to pray into that to see a shift, we're going to do it. Yes. Um,

Pray And Do For Real Change

SPEAKER_01 32:09

yeah.

SPEAKER_04 32:09

And I think, yeah, I think part of it is that uh it's a little bit like, okay, so just for example, take poverty in our region, right? So we have at times prayed into that. We've prayed into the sort of breaking a poverty spirit. There's a lot of, you know, again, uh it's I heard someone say this like you can't fix poverty by uh by chucking money at it, but you can't fix poverty by not chucking money at it either. So it's a little bit of a uh a double-edged sword there. So but the but what I want to get, what I want to get at is like, for example, there's a there's a practical act uh um there's a prey and due element to intercession, right? So I think from a greater from a like there's a role that the church plays in breaking a poverty spirit over a region. Yes, yes, I think, I think there's a call it a two-legged approach where it's like, yes, we spend our time in prayer, uh saying, God, you know, in the name of Jesus, like let the let the poverty spirit over this region let uh be broken, where there's dysfunction and decay and addiction, everything seeming to rob this region and the people of this region of abundance, right? And so uh there's that there's that element too, but there's also then, okay, so what is the church practically going to do about it? And then it looks a little bit like the church, you know, for us here, it looks like every every September we give away a an astonishing level of money to to people, to groups, to organizations that are working mostly onto those ends, right?

SPEAKER_01 34:01

There's some other kingdom stuff that we do, but the edge of that that doesn't come out of our budget that actually for weeks before we are called.

SPEAKER_04 34:10

It comes from the the church, right? And so they have to personally again so and again, this is this is the a real picture of how the church, you know, and this is part of it, right? Again, there's other elements and there's other needs and whatever, but this is one of the elements that you know the church uh you know is called to both pray and then do in a uh call it as as really as an intercessory role on behalf of the region where we're going to not only are we um are we gonna give money away, but we're also gonna provide services uh and ministries that are unto breaking addiction, right? Right, breaking the cycle the cycle and patterns of dysfunction and destruction in people's lives. Yeah. So that's just I think for me, when I think about I think about the intercessor, because there's a there's a part of it that's it, I think it's like it's like the I I'm gonna not make in a theological statement here, but there's the there's the heaven and earth, right? Yeah, the heaven part is the prayer part and the earth part is the giving stuff away. Right. Right. To me, like that's and that's the intersection there where that where that intercession, it's like um, you know, it's like Jesus came as the, you know, and maybe I'm getting ahead of myself here because we wanted to get to Christ as the ultimate intercessor. But when Jesus came, he lived a model, he lived a life in the both from a spiritual perspective in prayer with the Father. But then it was also he touched people. Yeah, that's right. He died on a real he was a real human body that died on a you know a real wooden Roman cross and was buried in a real grave and then ultimately rose from that grave. Right.

SPEAKER_01 35:56

So you're expanding that idea that his intercession wasn't only prayer. Exactly. Right. I love this. This is I love this. Um N. T. Wright talks about intercession is the church standing at the dangerous intersection between heaven and earth. Yeah, I guess it's like standing in impossible, standing with people in impossible situations because you've prayed, but you're standing with them knowing that it's kind of impossible for their provision to come right now. Yeah. And yet we're gonna maybe get do what we can, but we're also gonna believe God for some impossible solutions for them. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 36:36

Could I yeah, I just throw this out there because I think, you know, I'm just gonna I'm just gonna lob something out with only a little bit of thought. It's actually a misnomer, like for people to call the people who pray intercessors.

SPEAKER_01 36:52

Because they pray real passionately, right?

SPEAKER_04 36:54

Perhaps, right, right, yeah, because it is the role of the whole church to be intercessory. Yeah, that's right. Right? Yeah, yeah. It's not just the people who pray who are the intercessors.

SPEAKER_01 37:05

We present to shift things on earth as it is in heaven, like to have a vision from heaven, but it really isn't going to be complete till something shifts on earth. Exactly. Wow.

SPEAKER_04 37:15

Yeah, there's a there's a there's a thought. So I would just say like, yeah, just that let's color that in. Like I'm just saying, like, again, I'm just sure kind of like working this out right in real time right here. But I just think I think it's important that that the believer, that every believer recognizes their own role in the intercessor, in in the intercessory process of their life and seeing the kingdom of God advance in and through people, right? And and and I just to say that like again, and I think very much so, that it isn't one or the other, you know, it isn't about let the prayers pray, and I'll just do the I'll do the giving part or I'll do the working part. Right. It is both, right? Yeah, so and again, I mean, sure there's limitations and exceptions, yada, yada, yada. But I would say, I would say very much so that it is an invitation for both for a dual reality of the mystical, the spiritual side in prayer, but also the practical, the, you know, the the touching, wow, you know, the heavy heaven touching earth through an individual, yeah. Right through an act of generosity, right, you know, ministry, whatever, whatever. And it's probably gonna be inconvenient. Yeah. Oh, yeah. There was definitely, I mean, again, I think there's definitely uh cost to it, yeah, right? That offering to the Lord should be costly at some level. Right. Right?

SPEAKER_01 38:46

Yeah, but even lifestyle-wise, that um, you know, the the combination of praying and praying passionately into something, asking for solutions, and doing doing spiritual warfare to see solution come to somebody, there does need to be that readiness that I'm okay with this inconveniencing me. Like in whatever way I'm part of the solution, I'm accepting the fact that this is going to be inconvenient. Because I I really I really do feel that that God goes ahead and takes us up on our prayers sometimes. And this kind of is funny because it kind of goes back to even what I started with. That when you say, God, I want to be swept up in your agenda, yeah, well, he's gonna take you up on that. Yeah, it's liable to make you kind of miserable until you realize, oh, I did ask for that, didn't I? Yeah, like I can't always do God's agenda and mine in the same day. Yeah, I really need to surrender to His. And oftentimes His is doing is bringing a on earth as it is in heaven solution to somebody. But if I'm not willing to let it inconvenience me, then I'm not standing in the gap. I'm not right, you know, I'm like if I'm bitter about the fact that it's inconveniencing me, then that's an issue of my heart. I need to wake up and realize things could be happening exactly the way they should, and I'm gonna be greatly inconvenienced. Yes. That could actually be part of the way the glory comes into this, yeah, right.

Jesus The Great Intercessor

SPEAKER_04 40:25

Absolutely. Yeah, uh, and just and I think one of the that I was just you know scratching at earlier was was an and I I looked up uh just the scripture verse in Hebrews, and and it really is like, okay, talking about intercession is ultimately, you know, uh the other misnomer is that the the intercessor, right, is actually like we are intercessors only in as much as we partner with the great intercession, right? Right or intercessor, yeah, right. So it's like you know, Hebrews. Um I'm gonna just read uh you know, let me start at verse 23. It says, the former priests, which again, according to First Peter, we've we are um a kingdom of a kingdom and priests, right? Not a kingdom of priests, a kingdom, we are a kingdom, yeah, and we are priests. Yeah, so uh that we've been you know we're a holy nation, you know. Uh so that in Christ we're all we've all become members of the priesthood. Right. And so uh just verse 23 of uh Hebrews 7 here says the former priests were many in number because they were prevented by death from continuing in the office, but he holds priesthood permanently, and this is Jesus, because he continues forever. Uh consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them. And I think that's from that's back to that place of him before the Father and Him on the cross, right? So I think that's the part of um what that like he he is the ultimate intercessor. And so our intercession is effective and and meaningful and purposeful only in as much as it comes into alignment with the the the intercessory identity of Jesus. Yeah, right. And so just to yeah, just to throw that out there, it's like, and again, like not to, you know, I just want to clarify, like again, may maybe you don't know, you know, maybe you have some preconceived notions about what an intercessor is, what what intercession does, what's it, what's its purpose, right? Why is it a big long name? Why for a fan a fancy name for the person who likes to pray in you know in your church or whatever. Uh and so I just think just to provide some context and clarity, like ultimately this is a ministry that begins with Christ. Right. This begin and it's find its fulfillment in Christ. And so, and so I guess that's the that's the invitation of the the believer and for every believer is to be caught up into the intercessory, you know, into the intercessory role that Christ plays. Right. Yeah, you know, as as the great narrative unfolds, right? Like is to so he's looking for you and me to to grab and to lean in and hear his heart, yeah, and then pray on earth as it is in heaven, and then go give you know cups of cold water in his name. And you know, obviously it's I'm just I'm generalizing here, but really back to that. Okay, so this is this is a mystical and a practical reality.

SPEAKER_01 43:56

Yeah. Well, you know, it could be.

Incarnation And The Church’s Mission

SPEAKER_01 44:00

that the uh that the intercessory ministry of Jesus that he was already walking in in his earthly ministry, you know, um that that that intercessory ministry may be more tied to what we call the incarnation. Yeah that that it might be more closely tied than we think that Jesus' mission on the earth didn't end when he returned to the right hand of the Father right and and the Holy Spirit was poured out it's a it's a mistake for us to think well there Jesus kind of wipes off his hands and sits down. It's actually a multiplication of his mission in the world. Like unless I go away the Holy Spirit won't be poured out it's actually going to be for your good that I go away because uh you will you uh you will in a sense um you will now be you'll now be sent out to continue my my in-person ministry on the earth yep I'm gonna continue my ministry through the church yeah and it's actually going to be multiplied throughout the whole world that that the that the intercession the like isn't like to say okay it's not just prayer it's actually action as well yep that people understand people understand the mission of Jesus as the church takes it up so doing the works that Jesus did and interacting with our communities in ways that Jesus would if he were here like that that is very closely tied together like the as you were talking it was just unfolding for me in my mind that we often do act as if Jesus' mission was wrapped up when he ascended back to the Father right right now we're just waiting until the day when he returns when in reality it was his an expansion of his ministry and it should be still expanding.

SPEAKER_04 46:11

Yes so we're we take this on as seriously as if we were Jesus in that sense like well I again that that's the part of it right like as as people who are in Christ like there's that isn't just a title that we put on there is a there is a reality that by by the by the presence and the grace and the gifts of the Holy Spirit in us we are in Christ Christ in you the hope of glory the the Christ is in us we are in Christ that's that mystical union we are uh image bearers of God people who carry Christ with us to touch the world around us right in however however he leads right yeah and so I just think that that that is right so there is a there is a sort of like there is a uh and and again we're called Christians like little Christs right that that there is a there is a a deeper meaning that we aren't just people who we aren't just saved people right although that is true it's a that's uh that isn't necessarily coloring in all of the areas we're actually like little christs walking around mission continuing the mission of God on the earth so that exactly you know ultimately that that that every human comes to know him right comes to this comes to this union with Christ wow because he's inviting everyone and also to see that his kingdom advance you know obviously on the earth and so and then his will you know in increasing fashion gets accomplished yeah right yeah because again like we know like and we've you know we tackled this uh a little bit like that you know the the will of God isn't always done on the earth right right yeah that's right if that's if that were true you know you know if that if the will of God were always done then there wouldn't be any murder any you know any uh any other horrific crimes against humanity all that all that dysfunction would be gone right right but then the but the Lord is looking for us through the church through us you know I I don't know who said this but the church like who said this the church is the hope of the world right like ultimately it's not diminishing Christ's role because we are we are only the church because of Christ. Yeah and so but just to say that like the the role of our role now here in these days is to be image bearers to be carriers of the presence of Jesus this mystical union and also this nexus between heaven and earth walking around advancing yeah advancing the kingdom and he's it's that's the that's the plan right to which the gates of hell will not prevail yeah right yeah like paradigm wise it's really challenging and I I would encourage anybody listening to to go ahead and and take this challenge on like do we believe that Jesus is no longer on mission on the earth or do we believe he is still on mission on the earth I I believe he is still on mission through the church.

SPEAKER_01 49:29

Yep agreed that that he is he is not done he like Jesus has not completed his work and so now he's just waiting to see how all this unfolds and coming back and holding the church accountable for this and that he's actually actively continuing to be on mission to see God's kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven through the cooperation of the church. Like he works through the church which says to me that intercession really this conversation is kind of reshaping something in me that intercession is actually being being more and more on mission with Jesus. But in our living like it's uh it's a it's a it's it's something that that stays with you through your days through your weeks where you're saying um if if there are places where my community my city my church is vulnerable right now to the enemy's attacks then God's holding me responsible to search those out with you know with his guidance with the Holy Spirit but actually when I when I see it to not shelve it but actually pray and do pray and and take action.

SPEAKER_04 50:48

Yep right yeah yeah ultimately that I think that's the you know here just as we sort of land the plane I think that you know my mind sort of like all over the place like when we when we pray and when you know someone gets healed or when we pray and something demonic gets broken off someone or they a lie gets exposed or or uh aura you know uh a house gets built or uh you know some appliances get given right or you know those kinds of things like it's like it's any and all ways where in in the love and the name of Jesus things happen that are you know that advance the kingdom of God I think that's the it happens because it happened because an intercessor stepped in. Right. Yes right yeah right yeah someone has set seen a need and said I will go to God on your behalf right and then I'll do something about it. Right. Right so I you know and again I think that's the yeah and and maybe maybe you maybe you can pray for us in sort of in this way is just pray pray for just pray for our hearts and our understanding of what it means to be an intercessor. Yeah maybe that we can sort of expand our expand our imagin like like like our view of what yeah the intercessory role of Jesus is or just blow our minds a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 52:19

Yeah yeah yeah yeah what's there's a scripture I want to try to pull in here if we can Jesus went about Jesus was anointed by the Holy Spirit and he went about uh doing uh doing good healing those were healing those who are being oppressed by the devil yeah yeah yeah it feels like that's an that's that that's that's like a a the capsule of what I'm imagining as intercession right now. Yeah Jesus was anointed but it was it in Peter's sermon maybe how Jesus went about I'll tell you where he's at in two seconds. Okay I'd love to incorporate incorporate that into the prayer that's what I'm thinking.

SPEAKER_04 53:03

I think it was yeah it was uh Acts 10. Acts 10 38 okay how God anointed Jesus uh with the Holy Spirit and with power he went about doing good and healing all those who were pressed by the devil for God was with him.

SPEAKER_01 53:22

Right okay yeah that to me is I would love to just maybe incorporate that

Acts 10:38 Prayer And Closing

SPEAKER_01 53:28

into our prayer. Yeah yeah yeah God this has been a really great conversation and I'm I'm so grateful. Um God thank you for your call on our life thank you for what you have asked and invited and we just yeah we just say God teach us lead us Holy Spirit um God I just I I just want to read this scripture and then maybe pray into it how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power and how he went around doing good and healing all sorry I want to slow down he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil because God was with him. Lord I pray for for maturity in the church I pray that God that you would help us to rightly understand the anointing of the Holy Spirit and power is for the purpose of intercession. The way we've been talking about it that we would learn to go around doing good and healing all who are under the power of the devil Lord that we would see doing good elevated to a place where we understand this is your kingdom working in our communities and healing all who are under the power of the devil Lord that you would use us not just to pray that the enemy would be defeated but that we would actually move uh move out and and deliver healing power and setting captives free in the name of Jesus in our communities. Thanks for opening up this concept of intercession to us today God uh Lord bless bless people are listening bless our lives for your glory and and our joy and your joy amen well that's a wrap on this episode it's been a privilege to have you as an honored guest as we all learn to hear God better.

SPEAKER_04 55:25

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