Because We Are Loved

When you’re trying to hear God and live a prophetic lifestyle, it’s easy to slip into a hidden fear: “If I mess up, God will be disappointed.” We open with a real testimony of healing and the quiet courage it takes to respond, then we zoom out to the deeper question underneath it all: what does obedience look like when love is the foundation, not the reward?

We walk through John 15 where Jesus says “remain in my love,” ties obedience to friendship, and commands us to love one another. We talk honestly about how religion flips the equation into performance and how a servant mindset expects the stick. Then we explore the surprising biblical tension that Jesus “learned obedience” and “grew in wisdom,” and how that gives us permission to be in process without excusing sin. The invitation we keep hearing is simple and confronting: come close, abide, and let love reshape what you do.

We also bring this into local church life and healthy prophetic community. We talk about how gifting can create pedestals, why hearing God is meant to be practiced together, and how confessional community brings disobedience into the light so healing and interdependence can grow. We end by naming sacrificial love as the normal kingdom pattern and praying for grace to remain in Christ’s love as a community.

If this helps you reframe Christian obedience, discipleship, and hearing God through sonship and friendship, subscribe, share it with a friend, and leave a review. What part of John 15 challenges you most right now?

Transcript

Welcome To Hearing God

SPEAKER_05 0:00

Welcome to the Hearing God Podcast. I'm Anthony Moore, and I'm Dan Lamus. For over a decade, Anthony and I have been diving deep into weekly conversations about the prophetic, the mystical, and the matters of the heart.

SPEAKER_02 0:15

And we invite you into these weekly conversations. We hope you feel like an honored guest at our table.

SPEAKER_05 0:21

So pull up a chair, settle in, and let's get started. Well, here we are. Here we are. I love it. Here we are. Here we are again. Yeah, yeah. Hello, everybody listening.

SPEAKER_02 0:35

Yeah. Glad you're here. Glad you're here. Yeah. Thank you for listening. Yep. Uh this has been uh this has been a doing this whole podcast has been, I think, um, a little bit stretching for me, I think, for sure. Um, but also I think I think we're still in the vein of like just really wanting to be helpful to people, talking about things that may not get discussed all the time. Um, just obviously matters of the heart. And uh so yeah, I think this has been fun, it's been challenging, but also been really, really good. I know it's good for my soul to just chew on these things.

SPEAKER_05 1:15

And man, we do our best to be candid and just kind of current to where we're at in our lives and you know, sharing the real challenge of carving out a prophetic lifestyle, a lifestyle of hearing God. Yeah. Fully believing convictionally that hearing God is the most important, like dynamic to our life in giving us any kind of direction or stability or yeah, yeah, stability moving through the challenges of heaven and earth existence, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:54

Yeah, I get a actually before we you know get into the meat of the order, uh, I got a cool testimony that I heard just recently. Um I was in uh one of our locations, and um and uh I had a random guy come up to me who I didn't know, but uh he said he said to me, he says, uh just hey, how you doing? Uh and I said hello, he introduced himself to me and he said, uh, the last time you were here in this location, which would have been about two months or so, right? Um, he he says, uh, you called out uh word of knowledge for uh next, like that the Lord wanted to heal next. Yeah. And uh he he says, he says, okay, so that was me. So I've been suffering with this thing for uh 15 years, and I really wrestled with you know, putting my hand up. So just as you know, that's that's a very human thing to do. Yeah, God, you know, are you really gonna do this? Yeah, are you whatever? Uh so he was back and forth. Um, and then the Lord is sort of dealing with him in the whatever that quick, you know, 15 seconds it is, you know, between calling out a feels like a lifetime. That feels like a lifetime, yeah. Between raising your hand and then moving into the prayer moment. Yeah. Uh, and then he said, he said, God healed me. And he's like, after 15 years, he hasn't had any discomfort in his neck for going on two months now. That's wild. And I was just, I was like, huh, I was like, that is incredible. Oh, that's so that was anyway. That was just uh in and funny, uh, you know, you think maybe you'd hear more than you do, but um, you often don't get a lot of feedback in those ways. When you're just, you know, you're doing your best to try to be obedient, you're doing your best to try and hear God. Yeah. You, you know, you feel like in those moments sometimes that it's like, all right, you know, you're kind of like putting your uh, I don't know, you just just uh checking all the the boxes to say, well, am I stepping out in faith? Yes. For the for all integrity's sake, do I believe that I heard God? Yes. Yep. Did we did I feel like we stretched and we leaned into a moment? Was the presence of the Lord there? Yep. Okay. Then we just have to sort of leave that with the results with God. Leave the results with God. Yeah. And uh, you know, and again, this isn't, but just sometimes it's just sometimes it's really, you know, again, I was like super encouraged. You know, obviously the guy is doing well. Uh, you know, he's able to like his quality of life is improved, he's able to do uh, you know, he's able to work without any discomfort. And so I just felt really encouraged uh on all the levels, right? Uh, you know, for for the risk taking, for the, you know, that's cool. And again, like, you know, we say all the time we're not, you know, we're not experts. We may get a little comfortable with the format that we use and the form by which, you know, uh, you know, that we, you know, we do these kinds of things. And um, but yeah, like we're we're still, you know, again, always, always practicing, always practicing, never, never pretending. Yeah. Uh so that's uh that was a really, a really, really encouraging testimony that I heard. He just came up to me and just introduced himself. And I'm like, oh my gosh. Yeah, thank you so much. Like, and I was like, wow, God healed you.

SPEAKER_05 5:38

And just to put it in a little context, so that would that have been in in uh in this year, 2026? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So it's just so like in this current year, yeah, God's still doing these kinds of things with ordinary people like you and me. Yeah, and those anybody listening, what a beautiful encouragement. Like, yeah, like in in your ordinary moments, God asks you to do to do a thing. Yeah, you never know what he's gonna bring about.

SPEAKER_02 6:05

Yeah, totally. Yeah, and it's not like I don't think he's certainly beholden to how we do things, right? But I do think in the principle is is like was like, okay, Lord, we're gonna go do a thing. Like, who what do you want to do? Right. Right. So it's like it's like the you know, there is a little bit of that form and fire language, right? So we've created this form of like, okay, we're gonna go, it's on the schedule to we really be at this to be uh yeah, to be in the spot, yeah, and we're gonna do a prayer moment, right? All right, Lord. Yeah, of all the things that you want to do, what do you want to do? Yes. And so just really opening the and again, he doesn't again, he he he honors this dance more than more than probably that we might be comfortable with. Right. But he honors the the he honors and values uh how he established humanity to work. Yeah, right. We're the we're sort of the on earth part of that. Yeah, you know, and again, like as as earth, you know, earth agrees with heaven that you know that okay, we're Lord, we're gonna pray, step into a prayer moment. Yep, there's the we want to partner with you. What do you want to do? Right. Right. And so there's a there's a dance that goes on there between, and again, like I think most people who who risk and step into this kind of moment would have you know just some recollection, like or some uh there'd be some common things going on. There might be some different things, but there might be some common things. But honestly, like again, none of us sort of uh none of us we know what's really going on here. We're doing Earth is doing its best to partner with heaven. Yes, that's right, and heaven is showing up right and saying, you know, I love you, I love every I love humanity. That's gonna work through you, yeah, and I'm I'm gonna demonstrate that I'm true to my word. You know, he's he's just set it up that way. And so I just I feel like I love it.

SPEAKER_05 8:04

It's like it's like Earth's the the blessing Earth experiences from heaven is heaven actually wants to work with us, right? And the blessing that heaven receives from Earth is these guys letting us do incredible stuff on earth, yeah, and it blows their mind every time. I think heaven is blessed by the dependence of saying, we don't know how to do this, heaven. Yeah, you do.

SPEAKER_02 8:28

Right. So and it and it comes, it comes always comes back to me by it's by grace through faith. Yes, right? Like, and I go, and I go, this is the this is the generosity, like you know, grace is the generosity, the operational power of God, but it's like the generosity of heaven through the step of faith, the risk of earth, right? The risk of humanity stepping into that spot. And so and again, like we don't, we we're we don't, you know, I'm I think I can make it more complicated than that sometimes, but oh yeah, but essentially it isn't more it isn't more complicated than that. So anyway, we do again, we do our best, you know, we're gonna we're gonna jump into some obedience stuff here, but I think we do our best, you know, before the Lord, in the fear of the Lord, trying to honor the Lord, do our best to uh to hear him, to be obedient, you know, in the mix of that. Like that's so that's a there's a mixed bag, obedience to God. And so maybe, maybe we'll crack that open a little bit. But uh I just thought it was worth maybe somebody's gonna be encouraged, maybe someone's gonna be encouraged to actually step out in faith. Yeah so I thought I just yeah, it'd be good. That's a cool testimonial.

SPEAKER_05 9:40

And if that person is listening, yeah, who spoke to you about their neck being healed, yeah, man. Good on you. And God loves you. That uh healing in your neck is just a just a love letter that he loves you, then he thinks you're awesome. Yep. And so that's cool.

John 15 Read And Unpacked

SPEAKER_02 9:57

That's really cool. Yeah, it's good, good, uh, good, good segue. So talking about obedience. Yeah. Yeah. What's uh what's going on? Yeah, I um take us there, Dan. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 10:08

So I there is a section in John chapter 15, and maybe what I'll do is I'll just I'll just read it because it's this really intriguing uh scene. Of course, this is Jesus' last gathering with his with his 12 disciples in the upper room discourse, right? That's right. Yeah, it's this whole section, John 14 through to 17 or so. Um and so he's in the middle of talking to them about this this new command he's giving them to love one another, you know, and he's he's doing a teaching on it conversationally. And so I'll just break in here verse 9 in John chapter 15. Jesus says, As the Father has loved me, so I have loved you. Now remain in my love. If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love. Just as I have kept my father's commands and remain in his love. I've told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. My command is this love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this to lay down one's life for one's friends. Right. You are my friends if you do what I command. I no longer call you servants because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I've called you friends for everything that I learned from my father, I have made known to you. You did not choose me, but I chose you, appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit, fruit that will last, so that whatever you ask in my name, the father will give you. This is my command. Love each other. Right. So there's like some really interesting weaving together of themes.

SPEAKER_02 11:57

It seems like there's some conditions going on.

SPEAKER_05 11:58

Yeah, you have these themes of yeah, I've displayed the love I've displayed to you twelve is the way the father has loved me. Right. So I've loved you the same way. Uh, you know, um if you if you uh love me, you obey my commands. Uh I have made you friends, not servants. I'm calling you friends, you know, and if you are my friends, you'll obey my commands. Maybe you could even interchange that back and forth. If you obey my commands, you are my friends, and so on. And then he comes back to the command, my new command, my command to you is love one another. Yeah, and so there's intriguing themes that get all woven together in there, but man, they've got some pitfalls, right?

SPEAKER_03 12:49

Sure.

SPEAKER_05 12:49

Like you said, the conditions, like the uh and so I'm thinking about this in light of uh hearing God and hearing God and walking walking forward in your mission on mission with Jesus as a community, you know, not doing it solo, doing it as a community, just to give a little context for the conversation. Jesus isn't talking to just one of his disciples at a time. Right. He's talking to all 12 of them. Right. So it's a community experience. And what I was thinking about was how in as a prophetic community I feel like this uh the it's kind of uh some some gritty kind of relational stuff here of mixing in here. Well, you know, is it in the book of Amos where Yeah Amos 3.7 how the prop the prophets are referred to as the friends of God, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:50

Surely surely the Lord does nothing on the earth except He tells his friends the prophets.

SPEAKER_05 13:55

Yeah, yeah. So it's this I don't know if any that stirs anything up in you or are specifically in you. I think there's a number of tracks we could run down here in a conversation.

SPEAKER_02 14:08

Well, I think I just think like you know, one of the things that you know, it's like if you obey, like it's really like if you love me, you'll obey my commandments, right? And so just like we like how I often read it and probably have read that plenty of times before, is that you know, if you love me, you'll obey me. Yeah, right. And yet it's almost like our obedience is like there's another way we like we flip that a little bit, whereas it's almost if you obey me, then you love me. Yes, right. Your obedience is the demonstration that you love me rather than your love is like your love is actually the the source of your obedience. Yes, right, exactly. So it's not like it's like the the economy gets flipped instead of us looking at our performance for the like how we're doing, you know, as as uh as the qualification. That's the better way to say that. Yeah, we look at our performance as the qualification to determine how well we're loving God. Yes, that's right. Rather than looking and living from the love of God and then operating from that place. Right. And so I think that's that's often like, you know, it's like we hear that like almost like we hear, you know, like I don't know, maybe like uh your your mom, your mother when you're like eight years old. If you love me, you'll do what I say. Right. Right, you know, as almost like as a kid, we learn that, right? We learn that the that our our actions and the the performance part of that is the determining factor of the quality of our love. Right. And that maybe there may be some truth to that. Like I think there is there there might be some truth to that, but I think the big part of it is is that we could again we can obey the Lord with let's say with uh impure motives. Right. Like say we have a bad attitude, right? Right. So we love, let's say, out of obedience with a bad attitude, I do the things that the Lord wants us to do. Right.

SPEAKER_05 16:31

And again, and I expect a certain outcome, right?

SPEAKER_02 16:33

I because of that. Right. And again, like I think part of it is is I think the what the Lord is trying to do is that when we love when we actually uh pay attention first or maybe use use the like or just dwell in the love of God, right? Don't forget about forget it for a second, but push aside what you're gonna do, right? Right. But it's the it's maybe it's a little bit of a Mary Martha situation here, but because the good portion is sitting at Jesus' feet, being in the presence of God, right, loving the Lord, beholding him, spending time with him, communion with him. And then because of what the Lord does in that space, that will inform and shape all the things that we're saying, yeah. Right. So exactly. So it just again, like I'm sure I'm not the only one here, and I'm sure like here and again, we've had these conversations before, but we're not the only key that we're not the ones, the only ones that have got this equation out of whack.

SPEAKER_05 17:29

That's right. That's right. And I I I feel like this conversation Jesus is having with his 12 disciples, he uses the way the father has loved me, I am loving you. Yes, you know, that's a much more expansive uh vision than what we usually give credit. Like it the way the father loved Jesus was unconditional. And the love that the father and the son shared fueled everything Jesus did.

SPEAKER_03 18:06

Right.

SPEAKER_05 18:06

Yes. Like there was never a time when the father said, Well, let's see how the son does as the word becomes flesh. Let's see how he does, and and and and I'll decide whether or not I'm gonna keep lavishing my love on him. Yeah. It was actually the I've I've heard theologians talk about the glory that we saw in Christ was really the glory of the relationship between the father and son that was revealed through the word becoming flesh. It was this beautiful relationship where where Jesus, the word made flesh, lived in obedience to his father's commands because he knew the father loved him. And it was that love that they shared that actually fueled everything, like you were just saying. Yeah, yeah. Um and I think it's a beautiful uh backdrop that Jesus paints that says, okay, guys, I'm gonna share with you, I'm gonna tell you this is my command, love one another, but it's not in order to become my friends, right? It's love one another because of the friendship I've extended to you. Like the like the outflow of this friendship is going to be you will do whatever I command. Yeah. Because there won't be any tension in uh you know, gaining my approval and my love by obeying me. It's this is going to come out of your lifestyle because you know you're loved by me. Right. Um, and so when Jesus says, I'm gonna love you the way I have loved you, the way my father's loved me, he's saying it's not just the quality of love, right, but it's the motivation of the love, it's the where the love's coming from. What's the love trying to accomplish in your life? It's it's it's actually releasing the the works of the kingdom, you know.

SPEAKER_02 19:51

And I well, I just I think this is the the narrative all along. Like if we look, you know, I think I don't know where it is off the top of my head now, but in the book of Isaiah, like, you know, Jesus, uh the Lord is is saying to Israel through Isaiah, like I hate your I hate your sacrifices, I hate your festivals, right? Right? The sacrifices that God desires are broken, broken and contrite spirit. Right. Like it's like the whole the whole time, like the whole narrative is about God getting to the heart. Yes. Right?

SPEAKER_05 20:21

That's right.

SPEAKER_02 20:22

So so it's like again, these things are it's not that these things are without importance. I I do want to say that there are there are some things that do require uh, you know, again, sometimes we will have to out of just sheer surrender, right? Yeah, do do the stuff. Yeah, you know, but that's not to say that that's the ideal conditions, right? We're I think we're talking about like disobedience is still not cool, right? Disobedience, because I think that's the part of it. Sometimes like the person who looks at the performance and say, Well, what do you mean? Like that's like well, the stuff needs still needs to get done, right? We still have to be obedient. Yes, and I think we're not saying that, right? But what we are saying is that there's a better way, yes, is when we let love we begin first with love. We let love be the foundation. The performance comes as an outflow and an overflow of that love, yes, which is the way that Jesus operated. Yeah, right. He didn't do yeah, he began first because again, you know, first John, like God is love. I think I think it's first John. But it's like we love, we it begins with love, right? Right. Uh, you know, uh, you know, this is how Christ died for, you know, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us, right? This is how we know, yeah, you know, this is the we know the love, like it, but it began first with love, right? God so loved the world that He did something about it. Yes, right. Absolutely. So so it's like it's like this is the this is where we're we're going for. It's like, yeah, I know sometimes we might find ourselves doing things. out of sheer like, okay, surrender, my will wants something, but I recognize this is and that's also, yeah, that's there's also love in there as well.

Jesus Learned Obedience Too

unknown 22:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 22:10

Well it's really but it yeah so so several weeks ago, I I don't know, maybe it was a month and a half ago or so, I was really, as I read this very familiar scripture, and as I read it, people would say, yeah, I've heard that scripture before it's very familiar to me out of John 15. Um maybe for one of the first times in my life I was captured with the question, what does it mean that Jesus obeyed his father's commands? Like I don't think I had thought much about that. Like by the time we read of in the Gospels, read of these things that Jesus is teaching, he's somewhere around 30 years old. Right. So he's lived thir three decades of obeying his father's commands.

SPEAKER_03 22:54

Yep.

SPEAKER_05 22:55

And I found myself exploring and sitting with that question.

SPEAKER_02 23:00

What does it mean that Jesus obeyed right let me throw a little curveball if we read Hebrews it talks about him learning obedience through what he suffered. Right. Right. So there is a there is a sanctified process about learning obedience.

SPEAKER_05 23:18

I absolutely love that.

SPEAKER_02 23:19

Right. Yeah and so just to just to just to throw a little wrench in that in that in that process.

SPEAKER_05 23:24

Yeah and Luke writes Jesus grew yes in wisdom stature and faith with God and man. Yeah. Okay well if he had to grow in wisdom that must have meant he lacked some wisdom that he had to learn. Right. So our vision of Jesus is like okay so he got to where we encountered all the people are uncomfortable right now with this thought.

SPEAKER_02 23:44

Yeah but yeah we didn't yeah but we we didn't come up with it. Right. It's there you know it's there written yeah again and I think this is the wrestle is like can we in our minds allow if Jesus had to learn this can we one preserve the holiness the perfection of Jesus with the process and and if that's true if if this is true that there is a pro if we can if we can give this attribute the process of learning and growing uh learning obedience and growing in wisdom stature and favor with God and men if we can give attribute that to Jesus whilst Jesus is still perfect holy he's the spotless lamb yes you know all of that can we then flip that around and give that process to ourselves yes and give ourselves grace right in you know give ourselves mercy yeah in this process that me yeah that that obedience is not easy.

SPEAKER_05 24:50

Yes obedience it's hard work. Yes and it was probably hard work for Jesus to obey yes you know yes absolutely because I love my father and he loves me and I know who I am in him yeah I'm gonna obey this hard thing. Yes and Jesus I mean not not just in the the we the what we call the holy passion week not just in the events that happened in the in the holy week but all through his his years. Yeah there were things that he held to yeah because his father represented these things. These are my father's commands I do what my father commands and but he worked hard at that yes it was it was a challenge it was real.

SPEAKER_02 25:35

There was again like and again we know the the famous you know the Garden of Gethsemane prayer it's like if it be your will let this cup pass for me. Yes but then you know I think this is probably the culmination right of the obviously of the process that wasn't the first time he had to wrestle right with right the father's will is difficult. Yes exactly and so I think I think if we can you know and again you know to give ourselves some grace and mercy in the process right never never um I guess what I would say is never uh approving or tolerating the you know the the sinfulness that we may experience right right again looking to Jesus as the perfect example yeah so we would never tolerate that but I think we can give ourselves mercy in in the midst of the process yeah and and again like I wonder I wonder if this I wonder if this might say uh I think I think it's like the invitation is always come back to love. Yeah right so in your life my life like the invitation I think this is the rather than do better right which seems to be the economy of the world these days Jesus would be might be saying let me could I slide this across the table come and come and receive my love. Come and be with me yeah come and let me love you. Yeah come and like let me talk to you come and let just commune with me. Yeah absolutely and then and then rather than get your crap together it's come just be with me. Yeah let me love you.

SPEAKER_05 27:12

Yeah it seems very counterintuitive it is that Jesus message to me and my failure yeah even intentional failure at times would come to me and say you know what you need and I'm all ready to hear him say to do better.

SPEAKER_02 27:29

To do better and what he says to me is you need to know my love more yeah you need to come be with my love more you need to understand my love more deeply because obviously you don't yeah because you wouldn't be operating the way you are if you didn't understand my love the way like I love you and I want you you just need more you need to come how how many times and again this is like this this never I don't know I'm you know I'm 50 years old now and and yet my life seems to be in this uh seems to you know again maybe there's a freedom prayer session for me in this but like I seem to in in sometimes in my in my dysfunctionate and my sinfulness when I come to the Lord I haven't got over gotten over that ex at least at some times expecting the the do better. Yep right yep yeah and and oh like you usually say like it's like God's going do you need me to get the stick yes right like do you need me to go get the stick do you need me to go get the hundred percent and and and I think this is the beauty of it is that you know and again I think anyone who's had this moment right this is over and over the Lord has continues to surprise me with the the the drawing to himself yes like the better word the I love you uh rather than the the stick or the do better right and it's so I just think that this is a like when we have like these undeniable moments and again I've had you know plenty of these experien these experiences with the Lord over the course of my life right and some you know some are you know more serious than others at least from my perspective uh but I would say I would say that again this is the this is the pattern and again someday I'll get it uh hopefully right uh but like and again you know obviously when we see Jesus this will be uh perfected and complete but in this life you know again it seems to be this pattern over and over again I just my heart needs to just believe it more but we we we get into this pattern of like we think God's this oh this is the time yeah you had all this time this all this time up until now so yep so this time you're getting you're getting you're getting the stick you're getting the the real talking to yeah and Jesus over and over and over continues to demonstrate his love it's like it's the drawing to himself yeah the still the invitation come to me come to me come to me like let me love you like let's let's abide abide in my love right yeah so it's like it because I think it's from this place like that's the that's the source.

The Identity Triangle Explained

Healthy Prophetic Community Practices

SPEAKER_05 30:18

Yeah yeah to me you're like digging the shovel into John 15 right now right and it's like you just unearthed the gem and you're holding it up in front of me and we're talking about it because to me that's the whole point of servants are friends. Right because when I assume I'm gonna get the the punishment of the rod of punishment and the stern talking to I'm acting like a servant and in those moments Jesus says to me instead you're acting like a servant don't you know you're my friend yeah don't you know like yes I see the way that you didn't obey my command right there. But the way that you're the way that you're acting toward me right here in this moment you're acting like a servant but that's not who you are. And I'm telling you you're you're my friend. That's not the way friends do this. Friends do this differently you you must be missing something about my love and my acceptance of you that you would act out like that. Can we talk about that? And he wants to talk about that which just slays me in the best way and I want to talk about how I can do better. And he's like well I do want to give you a talking to but it's about how much I love you. And you know you need to you need to so then I want to tell you about um uh actually an illustration that I'll try to describe as as succinctly as I can by author Mike Michael Breen um I wish I could remember the name of his book I apologize to the listeners um but in one of Michael Breen's books on discipleship um he creates this diagram so if you could picture a triangle and on the top angle he has above that angle God representing eternal life is knowing God and and the and Jesus whom he sent out of John 173. So knowing God is eternal life that's at the top angle then down uh one of the bottom angles is uh adoption as sons and daughters right and the other angle is obedience okay this is called the identity triangle right so if you So knowing God yeah yeah so if you go clockwise around the knowing God at the top yeah what's yeah so clockwise that angle down at the bottom is adopted as sons and daughters adoption and then obedience and obedience right okay knowing God adoption and obedience yeah and so his idea is that if we realize that the way God has provided for us to know him is by making us sons and daughters. So if you move clockwise around the triangle you land at sons and daughters so the cycle begins and because we're sons and daughters we walk in obedience to him as Jesus did. Yep you know I love my father by obeying his commands because I love my father I obey his commands so as we obey his commands as sons and daughters that causes our relationship to go deeper with God. He reaffirms our sonship and daughtership that leads to more obedience we can this cycle this identity cycle is very healthy. Right but we tend to flip it the other way and oftentimes religion tends to flip it the other way we know we need to know God to actually possess eternal life and so we think we need to obey him in order to become his sons and daughters and that will take us deeper into relationship with him. Right. And we have this unhealthy cycle of the way I can know God better is to obey him more. And then he'll he'll actually love me more as his son and daughter. Right it's just an unhealthy cycle totally and the healthy cycle is realizing every time it's because I am his solution was to adopt me as his child and because I'm his child I walk in obedience we're doing this together. Yeah it's it's about him it's not about becoming his child it's about because our household because our family does it this way because he gets given me his name yeah this is the way I behave on earth as it is in heaven. Right. You know it's that's good obedience becomes like Jesus he wasn't earning his sonship through obedience he was he was displaying his sonship right through through obedience. Like this all this all these all the hard work Jesus was doing to live out heaven and earth reality and display the kingdom was because he and his father loved each other. Yes. And that's what he's called us to yes so there's another little thing here I want to throw in that I I was intrigued with it when I'm thinking about how part of our part of our the goal of our conversations is to really nurture healthy prophetic community in every local church everywhere. Yep. So wherever you're listening from our desire and prayer for you is healthy prophetic community. Perfect yes and so this is a real driving force for us because we know God loves us and and we're obeying his call um is healthy prophetic community. Well I so I feel like this intersects with the scripture because we all know the pitfalls of once we can hear from God well we've learned to hear from him we've developed some skill in this area or our brother or sister has we have a tendency to put one another on pedestals. Yes and if somebody's hearing clearly from God well then they must be living an extra holy life we make that unhealthy connection right there. And um so I I think it's worth remembering Jesus was having a conversation with a community of believers here. There were 12 of them yes he wasn't talking to just one his favorite or his least favorite whichever right he was talking to the all of them so he was expecting them to uh learn this this teaching he's bringing and live it live as a result of it as a community not as individuals right and there is a tendency in the hearing God community the prophetic community to feel pulled into doing this siloed like doing this solo like I'm gonna go off on my own and learn the lesson of because you're my friends you will obey what what I'm commanding and that's my business to know whether I am doing that or not. Right. And when I come to the prophetic community my only value is what I'm am I hearing from God and what am I hearing? Right and processing that.

SPEAKER_02 37:07

Right. From a sheer like informational perspective.

SPEAKER_05 37:09

Right yeah yeah where what but what I see here is it's actually a very healthy thing for us as prophetic community to to journey through this whole lesson together. Yeah. Like not being afraid to admit disobedience to one another. Right. Like developing that confessional community that we've talked about um that as a group helping each other discover what does it mean for us that that we that we display our identity as sons and daughters as prophets. Yep that we display that through obedience.

SPEAKER_03 37:53

Right.

SPEAKER_05 37:54

And if we're disobeying then there's a I need my brothers and sisters to process that with me. Right. I need to share it. I need to get it out in the open you know like we like to talk about you know one of the reasons that we believe in confessional community is because like when you're keeping sin and disobedience to yourself it remains in the dark and by admitting it to a friend you're bringing it out into the light. Right.

SPEAKER_02 38:20

And the enemy can't work there because the the light's coming into that you know I just think yeah something to bring to healthy yeah for sure and I think that's like amongst all the other things again like in we've I think we've talked recently about just like the health that comes from that. But I think one of the one of the things is that it actually creates this uh healthy interdependence maybe on healthy interdependence on our brothers and sisters right it's like so amongst all the other things that are happening yes the forgiveness is happening the healing is happening one one thing that does is it fosters again like like we know what happens in the midst of that like I know personally what happens in the midst of that walls come down bridges get made between your brothers and sisters when when those things happen and again like the fear of that vulnerability is the thing that actually keeps those bridges from being built from those from the it keeps those walls up. Right and I think just to just to talk about that we actually need to grow like one of the one of the things that happens from our obedience to the Lord in the you know in especially in this convention confessional community is the walls coming down the interdependence being created right between me you between me and another brother and another brother and you like the this knitting together that happens because of that right so we actually in in the midst of this journey that we're on we're actually growing in the love for one another. Right.

SPEAKER_05 39:58

Right and so and so yeah I guess that was just that's how that that sort of hits hits me I guess yeah I yeah so I I I feel like I just feel like it would be really great in the times that we are ministering in as a community here in our local expression but those who are listening like we we sincerely want to be faithful friends of God yes as prophets.

SPEAKER_02 40:25

We want to be a community of friends of God rightly handling what the Lord reveals and how we minister that yeah and so in that I think it's beautiful to think about Jesus saying something like this to the whole group yeah to the whole group this whole this whole group of you you did not choose me I chose you right yes as individuals but I've chosen you guys as a community like you're one yeah you the 12 of you guys I see you as one let me let me throw this little little thing at you as like I wonder if the Lord because he values the collective like he values the the larger picture of what he does if he will actually like I don't know curate this is I'm trying to say something here I'm not making theological statements here but I wonder if he will actually partially speak in a way that actually he'll he this I'm it seems like him to sort of say things in a way to us that actually drives us together. Yeah right that encourages us to to come to one another. But when I bring it to the community yeah and so I just I think that that's the you know again I think because I believe he's you know the things that we're talking about the the things that he's actually like he wants us to hear God as a community as a in as much as he wants us to hear hear the Lord as individuals but because he wants he wants both he's actually going to speak to you and me in a way that actually causes us to come together so that so that we could say that perhaps the revelation of what he's saying isn't complete until we involve the larger whole yeah right so that we actually create this interdependence on our brothers and sisters not a not a codependence in a healthy way but right the fact that I need like my life is better because of you know Christ in Dan the hope of glory or Christ in Justin the hope of glory. The people around me my life is actually better and encouraged in growth because of how the love of God gets expressed through you. Right. And so and so I just and again I'm just throwing it out there like perhaps again like so maybe this is like because I get I can see you know the the the the way that prophets can tend to be isolated right there's a you know due to some emotional imbalance or unhealth or wounds or whatever. And again I'm not I'm I don't want to be dismissive of that because a lot of those things are real. But I again like the heart the the ideal situation the heart of God is so that we would be together loving one another as we're all collectively hearing God hearing one facet of how God is speaking through one hearing another facet of how God's speaking through another and valuing that without any sort of superiority or like you know oftentimes again like we can get this like you know one person might have a powerful experience with God and we sort of get out like well God doesn't speak to me like that. So I can I can then make assumptions right I the economy gets all Out of whack in that situation. Like right suddenly everyone goes, Oh, you know, there's there's Bob who has all the, you know, he visited the Lord in the third heaven and had, you know, or this person had, you know, this open vision, right? With a with a sort of a quality, maybe I could say the quality or the type of experience that a person we can suddenly go, well, there's the person that actually hears God. Right. So let's let's shut off our own, you know, or at least and I think maybe without maybe without intention, but we would do that unintentionally by deferring all the time to this person, right? The thing that God's given us becomes unstewarded. Right. Right. The gift that God gives you becomes unstewarded because we're always looking to this person, because this person tends to have these experiences. And again, I think I, you know, if you live a little, if you if you spent any time in the charismatic community, I don't think this is intentional, but this is a dysfunction that can sort of organically happen. Right. But what we're saying here is like I'm reading in John 15, is like that the Lord actually, in a healthy prophetic community, all parts are valued, right? All parts are needed and valued and honored and loved in the midst of a healthy prophetic community. Right. So I think that's just that's an interesting, yeah, just an observation that where that takes me.

SPEAKER_05 45:27

Yeah, it's yes. The and obedience matters.

SPEAKER_02 45:34

Yep.

SPEAKER_05 45:36

If we leave each other to live solo lives, and as long as you're bringing a powerful word, yes, and getting good results, yeah. Uh I I don't have a right to ask you how you're doing. Right. What's your race and obedience you're walking in? Yes. What has God said to you? Like a you know, like the thing that we like to do in community. Okay, number one, what's God saying to you? Number two, what are you doing about it? Yeah. Like that's and we go around the table and we share it. Yep. Like, I should have every right at any point to ask you, yep, what is God telling you to do? Yes, what are you doing about it? And that's keep that regardless of how awesome your word is, it keeps you off the pedestal.

SPEAKER_02 46:17

It really is in your own heart for sure.

SPEAKER_05 46:19

Yeah, and I feel like that's part of the reason why Jesus says to the group, don't buy each other's press. Yeah, like you are my friends, and that's going to show up in obedience.

SPEAKER_03 46:30

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 46:31

And so if you don't have a current obedience you're walking in, well then share that one another and get a current obedience.

SPEAKER_02 46:40

Well, right, because I because I think that like we should we should consider this as like the Lord, the Lord is leading us to these places where we're going to have to, you know, like as love, because we love him, the Lord is so just again, because the Lord loves us and we love him, he's going to he's going to keep bringing us to these places where he's going to see where our current obedience is. Right. And so, like, and again, like, and he's not like it's not condemnation. He's like, okay, so if you know, again, like he's okay with circling the mountain, right? Right. Again, yeah, and bringing us back to this place of obedience. And so, yeah. So, anyway, like I just yeah, go for it.

Sacrificial Love As Kingdom Life

SPEAKER_05 47:25

So, would it be I I think this connection works. I don't think I've said this before, but here we go, as we do on Hearing God's podcast. Oh, some things are worth repeating. Some things are worth repeating. To put this kind of logic together, friends of Jesus lay their lives down. Maybe I got, whoops, I got a step ahead of myself. Okay. Friends of Jesus obey his commands.

SPEAKER_02 47:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 47:49

His command is to love one another. And to love one another means I lay my life down.

SPEAKER_03 47:57

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 47:58

And one of the things that does get lost in at least our Western culture is that the life of the kingdom is a life of laying down.

SPEAKER_03 48:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 48:10

It's it is a it's a it's a it's a life of saying a lot of life here. It's a life of laying your life down. It's a life of sacrificial love.

SPEAKER_02 48:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 48:20

And that shifts it out of the that shifts it out of the place of to prove something to God, yeah, by laying down my life. Yeah. No, it's displaying the kingdom. Like the actual life of the kingdom is sacrificial love. Yeah. That's what Jesus lived. All that he did was not to prove something to the Father. Right. It was to display the kingdom. Yes. And we've we've missed that in our Western culture where we think success is not having to ever lay your life down. And we so we tend to say the gospel is so you don't ever have to lay your life down. Right. Which is very twisted. Yes. Like we need to realize no, embracing the gospel means you're you do lay your life down. Yeah. Like your life is marked by sacrificial love because you're a son of God, a daughter of God. Yeah. That that that sort of to me gets superimposed here. And I I want to just mention one other amazing scripture in Hebrews that I think brings some context to this conversation too, is our high priest Jesus, whom we can come to the throne of grace anytime. Yes. The one on that throne, Jesus, the high priest, was tempted in every way, just as we are, but never sinned. Right. So the difference with Jesus is that He did this perfectly. He perfectly obeyed, but not for His own sake.

SPEAKER_02 49:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 49:53

He obeyed this perfectly so that we know He's good understands us, has our back, is infinitely working with us. Yep. That we would become more obedient, more consistently obedient, but not as proof that we're worthy of Him. Yeah. But as a demonstration of the kingdom. Yeah, it's good. Like so I don't have to be afraid sharing my disobedience with you. Yeah. Because you get it. Like, oh, God wants to display His kingdom through my life, and I'm stopping it up by disobeying.

SPEAKER_02 50:27

That's good.

SPEAKER_05 50:28

Like that's different than what am I trying to earn? Yeah. Right?

SPEAKER_02 50:33

That's good, man. Yeah. It's just uh I feel like we're just I know we gotta sort of land the plane here a little bit, but uh I feel like we're I feel like we're the the the next plane is you know taxing for for a runway. But maybe um maybe it's sort of as we again back to this place, back to just sort of a circle that sum everything up. Maybe we maybe you can pray for us in this way that that you know for all like that God would give us grace and help to to to come back to this place of abiding in Christ, abiding in the love of Christ. Yes, and and that let that be unto like that we would never leave that place of love, remain in his love, right? Remain in his love, and then and then it's like not only that, but just even unto that self-sacrificial love. Yeah, so maybe I I don't know. So so if you've so if you made it this far, th congratulations, and you're gonna get a good prayer.

Prayer Abide In Love And Close

SPEAKER_05 51:39

You want me to do that? Yeah, go for it, go for it. Oh God, just first of all, thank you for your living word. Thank you that your word is powerful, active, and it discerns things we could never get to on our own. So I thank you over this beautiful gospel of John and this beautiful chapter 15. Um God, uh, just release your grace even more over all of our listeners over our lives, yeah, that we would learn to remain in your love, that we would see ourselves as students, learners, that you are leading us to remain in your love more and more consistently. Yeah. And not just solo, God, but as a community, or bless the prophetic community and all of our churches, that we would as a community learn and discover how to remain in your love.

SPEAKER_03 52:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 52:38

And uh God and as Anthony was inviting me to pray, I was thinking, God, teach us to remain in your love, even when the reality of what your love is scares us because it does, it is a sacrificial love. Yeah, and it calls us to lay our lives down. Yeah, but God, in our own strength, we can't do this. Yeah, but we come and we just surrender ourselves to you, Lord. Amen. Um, you you can nurture the heart in us and we give you our hearts, Lord. Transform our hearts into hearts that will uh display love by sacrificing and laying down our lives freely uh for the sake of your kingdom to display your kingdom not so that you would be proud of us, but so that your kingdom would be known. Yeah. Uh, because we already know your favor is on us because of our union with Christ. So free us. Thank you, Lord. Uh in all in all these ways, God, we thank you for the chance to talk like this and to share uh in your powerful name, Jesus. Amen.

SPEAKER_03 53:47

Amen. Amen.

SPEAKER_05 53:50

Well, that's a wrap on this episode. It's been a privilege to have you as an honored guest as we all learn to hear God better.

SPEAKER_02 53:58

If your time with us has been encouraging and you think this conversation will be helpful to others, we would love it if you could share this podcast with the people around you. Until next time.