What to do when trouble comes

Trouble has a way of making us recheck everything we thought God said. We have an honest, grounded conversation about hearing God when life feels like a mixed bag and the “promise” timeline doesn’t match reality.

We talk about why cheap answers don’t help when you’re tired, healing from surgery, navigating chronic pain, or carrying a calling that seems stalled. The language that keeps coming up is marathon versus sprint, and we unpack why the Kingdom of God grows like a garden, not instant results. Along the way we look at Scripture’s slower stories, like Elijah and Jehu and the long road from David’s anointing to his throne, and we ask what those timelines teach us about spiritual maturity and perseverance.

We explore what to do when trouble comes, not if it comes. Jesus promises trials, and He also promises His presence. Drawing from Job and a powerful line from Kurt Thompson, we reflect on how God may not explain suffering, but He can use it, leading us into the “deepest place” for real healing. We close by talking about the prophetic voice of the church from 1 Corinthians 14, and how Spirit-led encouragement can call out the gold in someone when they can’t yet see it.

If you want practical, faith-filled perspective on spiritual growth, discernment, perseverance, and hearing God in hard seasons, press play. Subscribe, share this with a friend who’s in the wait, and leave a review so more people can find the conversation.

Transcript

Welcome Back And Season Reset

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to the Hearing God Podcast. I'm Anthony Moore, and I'm Dan Lamus. For over a decade, Anthony and I have been diving deep into weekly conversations about the prophetic, the mystical, and the matters of the heart.

SPEAKER_02 0:15

And we invite you into these weekly conversations. We hope you feel like an honored guest at our table.

SPEAKER_00 0:21

So pull up a chair, settle in, and let's get started. Well, here we are. Here we are.

SPEAKER_02 0:33

After a long pause, I guess you could call this probably season two if you're gonna call it anything, I suppose. It's uh yeah, certainly long awaited, long awaited season two. Yeah. 2026. Here we are. Here we are. Amazing. Yeah, we're we're right on it. Yep. Three months in. Oh man. Oh, that's good. That's good. That's good. So how's it going, Dan?

Surgery Update And Honest Check-In

SPEAKER_00 0:59

It's going well. Yeah. Yeah, it's going well with me. Um, yeah, just I'm glad to glad to be back here sitting here at the table and chatting with you here on the here on the Hearing God podcast. Um had some uh had a little bit of uh surgery since our last time together. And um that's gone well.

SPEAKER_02 1:23

Taking bones and joints out and replacing them with pure titanium.

SPEAKER_00 1:29

Yep. Yeah, and I'm feeling I'm feeling great. Yeah, you know, feeling great with it and really no regrets.

SPEAKER_02 1:36

And that's good. Yeah, it's good to hear everything is going well.

SPEAKER_00 1:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:40

And you, yeah, how am I? Uh, this is good. I think I've I've started to use this term, it's a mixed bag. And I and I there's a couple, there's a couple, there's a there's a reason for that because there's always this overarching, yes, God is good. And yes, in the middle of life, there are I think I I don't like cheap responses when when you know either I get them or I give them. I'm not a fan of of cheap responses, and I want to be as honest, but there are certainly plenty of times when time cannot afford, you know, a deeper explanation. So, you know, in try in an effort to be honest and concise, I think uh the response it's a mixed bag is fairly articulate, it's fairly accurate, and it's fairly concise. And if time allows, we can sort of go into the the nitty-gritty, the good and the bad and the ugly. Right. But um, you know, even in the best of times, it's it's a it's a mixed bag, right? So this it's I don't I can't recall the last time like literally everything was you know firing on all cylinders. And there's usually some something that's nagging or uh a detail or a frustration or oh man, I just love that about relationships and life.

SPEAKER_00 3:10

You know, you're never quite sure if someone is asking because they would like a report, or if they don't really want to report, they just want to acknowledge that they see you and if I had time I would care to hear how it's going. Yes. Right now I don't really want to know.

SPEAKER_02 3:26

If I actually cared.

SPEAKER_00 3:28

Oh, but that's that's so true about you, though. And I know of our friendship that um yeah, yeah, cheap responses, yeah, that you you you tend to call them out quite readily in yourself and other people, and yeah, it's really true.

Grace For The Long Haul

SPEAKER_02 3:43

Yeah. Um so let's yeah, so it's a mixed bag, I guess. That's the that's the long and short of it. Um there are a lot, I think, and I think you know, if the if the needle was sort of like, you know, standing vertically and good was on one side and bad was on the other side. I generally feel like even just the the flip of the calendar, the needle is move like it's it's leaning towards the good side. And so I would say generally speaking, things are mostly good in this in this season. It's just really feel like um, you know, I feel like hopeful in my heart. Uh, you know, I was away, I was had a chance to go away to a conference in New York City, which was a very profound and meaningful time. Yes. Uh it was refreshing to be with people that I know, to you know, to travel there with some of our team and to have lots of conversations and yet receive from the Lord in a what feel what felt like uh a very affirming way. Like I felt God affirm the things that are deep in my heart and also give me grace uh for the long haul, if I could say it that way. And so, so it was really, you know, some some of these things, you know, we use, we've used in the past, uh, maybe not in this context, but just in, you know, as as part of the church. And we've we've used this marathon versus sprint language, right? And I don't think that's necessarily original to us, but we have certainly used that's not, you know, that's not you're able to sort of grasp. There are some things that are gonna require a slow, a slower pace, but yet a steady and long-lasting pace. Right. And then there are seasons uh in your life where sprinting is definitely required. You know, it's not sustainable, right, but it is a, you know, there are shorter seasons where sort of output, higher output, higher, you know, engagement, you know, all hands on deck are certainly required. And so uh I have felt like I have felt like, you know, when I was away, I felt like much grace is given for you know the the long haul.

SPEAKER_00 6:11

Yeah, and so I just really felt just just Eugene Peterson, I think, talked about the long obedience in the same direction.

SPEAKER_02 6:20

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:21

Yeah, and I that's a that's a great expression. And you know, that's that's really cool because I think it would be encouraging for people who have walked with Jesus for a while. Yeah, that this tends to be a thing uh he does with people is he he he will he will establish over who knows uh decades, he'll establish a theme or two about your life. Yes, things that he wants to talk with you specifically about. Yes, that has to do with your calling and your mantle, and these are things that he he he really wants to emphasize to you. And then there will come a time where he will help you to understand through revelation and life experience, you'll you'll suddenly become aware that oh, this is gonna be true about me probably for the rest of my life and it, and I need to realize the things God has put in my heart may take the rest of my life. Absolutely.

The Kingdom Grows Like A Garden

SPEAKER_02 7:23

And I and I think that's uh there's uh there's this other thing. We've for sure talked about this uh in like it's worth certainly worth repeating. It's it's this it's this biblical imagery that that Jesus uses when he you know he compares his kingdom to a garden. And like the Lord's and he's he's not budging on that, right? Right? Like he's not he's not some suddenly has said, you know, now the kingdom of God is like a microwave.

SPEAKER_03 7:57

Right, right. Like like I want it to be.

SPEAKER_02 7:59

And again, and again, like I think that's where where frustrations can come in is that when you are very passionate, and maybe even just could I use the word zealous about good things, right? That the the the advancement of the kingdom, like seemingly like I want I want God's kingdom to be uh advanced in people's lives, and it and I want it now, right? And I want it to, I want it to happen yesterday. And certainly there is an internal uh there's an internal wrestle that happens quite frequently with you know that that's often like this tension on the other side of like passion, right? So if you're super passionate about even something kingdom related, you're like, well, it's on God's heart, I know it, and I want it. We agree, so let's go, let's get it done. And the problem is that comes is that you know, people like we deal with people, we work with people, right? And I cannot guarantee that people will be equally as passionate, right, uh, equally as like they don't, they may not see things uh as black and white as I do, and they may not be willing as willing to jump on board of the thing that I'm passionate about. Right. And and also there is the there is this sort of then there's the little bit, this doesn't have to um unfold how I think it should unfold, right? So there's there's a bunch of things in there, there's a bunch of dials in there, right?

SPEAKER_00 9:41

So it's really been this all the while he hasn't given up on you.

SPEAKER_02 9:44

No, and all the while he doesn't change his mind about the thing that I'm super passionate about, right? Right. So there's there's this there's this thing that I feel like the Lord has been helping me with is just it's the gardeness of the kingdom, yeah, and his unrelenting commitment to that. Yeah, right. And it's so so it's like I've I feel I felt, you know, certainly, gosh, uh, certainly, you know, more a little more so in the beginning of the year. Just I felt the Lord just speak to my heart and just say, you know, I love you, I agree with you, and and also just relax, kind of deal with that. That's really good. But it's it and it really is like because I think a lot of it, you know, frustration can lead to burnout, can lead to broken relationships. If the, you know, if the wrong word is spoken in the you know, the wrong season, and it's spoken out of frustration, you can certainly create more damage, uh, you know, damage that, and I think, you know, by God's grace, I feel as though I feel as though the wisdom, you know, that wisdom has been a good friend in these seasons, that even in the midst of frustration, I don't know. I feel like I've done okay. I've done a decent amount of like just holding my tongue in in the right scenario. So yeah, so anyway, if that's I I love it.

SPEAKER_00 11:23

I think that's that's it's that's really yeah, that's so true to life, and you know, not only historically out extra, you know, extra biblical history, but biblical history, what you're talking about is it's it's just it's just so it's woven into the whole story. Um you know, think of all the different Bible characters we have preached sermons about and read devotionals about and written songs about and told stories as uh created object lessons using people's stories. Uh God's choice of a person and sharing a dream with them, and then their fruition of it. Yeah, man, there's such a variety in how that unfolds. Sometimes it's fast, sometimes it takes a lifetime, sometimes it's generations later, yeah, that a dream God put into someone's heart actually comes to fruition. Very says, This is what I promised to your father. Yes.

Scripture Shows Slow Fulfillment

SPEAKER_02 12:23

And well, yeah, and that's such a great, that's a great, and we I've been, you know, you get by the fact that you can read chapter and verse, even bib bib biblically speaking, uh, by the fact that you can read that, you actually lose sight of, and and in fairness, sometimes the Bible doesn't communicate the uh the passing of time, right? Right. Uh, you know, that that reminds me that one random day, and you may not even remember this, but like I think it was a few weeks ago, I stopped you in the hall and I go, all right. So it when Elijah was in the mountain when uh when he was running from Jezebel and God called him to the when he was in the cave, and God called him, you know, he had that scene where fire and you know, wind and storm, you know, came and then God was not in that, and then the still small voice came. And so in in that specific, in I think it's like 2nd Kings, when that interaction happened with Elijah, God call called him to do two things. And one was one was go anoint Elisha as your successor, right? And the second was go anoint Jehu as the next king, right? Right. And so so in you know the proceeding.

SPEAKER_00 13:50

Well, see, I did not remember right, I could only come up with Elisha, and then yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:53

Right, so uh so the the the the interesting thing is is that Elisha immediately does one of those things, which was anoint Elisha as his sort of the prophet of the land, the successor, right? And so, and then and they begin this journey of you know, Elijah doesn't immediately get uh caught up in that, you know, in the whirlwind, right, with the with the chariots of the chariots of fire. Um, but the interesting thing was is that um is that Jehu is not immediately anointed. And so again, that just that just it it and I guess you don't really find that out until I mean obviously it's not there by chapter and verse, but then you find out, okay, it's actually like something like 12 or 13 years later. Wild. Where Jehu, Jehu is actually, and not only that, but it's not it's not Elijah that anoints him, it's actually Elisha that anoints him. And so that's and again, like there's there's this thing that it's just like, oh my gosh, like what am I reading here? It's like, yeah, was Elijah disobedient? Well, we don't get that sense from that, right? But you know, in that sort of prophetic lineage, the anointing of Jehu happens, yeah, right. And so, and then obviously the you know, the scene after the anointing, Jehu goes, confronts Jezebel, and she dies. That the long and short of that is the word, you know, the words that were spoken, even the prophetic words about you know what how God was going to deal with Jezebel actually came to pass. Right. Um, but the timing of it was the real, I guess the was the real sort of like jarring thing to me. Like, wait a second, this thing, this thing took way longer than I had built in my mind, right? We thought, oh, well, they both, you know, Elisha got anointed, Jehu got anointed, he went in.

SPEAKER_00 16:03

Just that's how they all got the memo.

SPEAKER_02 16:06

Yep, and and that just was immediately the thing that happened. And so it just was just an observation that I make. And I I guess these things about, you know, David was anointed king when he was very young, but it took 30 some years for him to for him to actually step into that role. So it is that that long, sometimes there is a narrative uh that is very real in our lives where the things that God has called us to actually take years, yeah, decades even for them to bear out in a in a you know you know, in the story of our life to see them, to see them come to pass. And so that's a that's one of the things I think that you know has helped me, you know, certainly in these last sort of few months, you know, at least temper temper the zeal a little bit to know that God is a God, God is faithful, you know, and his I would say this maybe a little bit, like his what he's looking for from my life, even the fruitfulness of my life, even the um the timing of it all, right? The reality is, you know, if God's called, he's like, Dan, I want you, I called you, I'm raising you up for a purpose, right? He doesn't necessarily like the part that gets unspoken, maybe sometimes, or certainly in vaguer details is how that's supposed to happen.

SPEAKER_00 17:53

Right.

SPEAKER_02 17:53

Right. Is how it's the details that sort of we find out later on. And again, like I think the Lord does this on purpose because you know there's uh you know, this the spelling out, like he doesn't do doesn't generally do that. He may give you a few signposts along the way to know you're let you know you're yeah, you know, you're either on the right track or off the right track, you know, off the track or whatever. Uh that seems to be the way that God operates, but he doesn't necessarily color in how this is going to happen. Yeah. And and I guess I don't know how could speak to that certainly with the sort of like the long the long obedience in the same direction.

SPEAKER_00 18:36

Well, you know, it's it feels like it feels like uh God speaking to you over time shapes you like the way that you the way that you interact with what he's saying. Um you believe his promise for something, and you of course all of us imagine it happening right away. Yeah. But the fact that it doesn't happen right away causes you to have to wrestle with a lot of dynamics. Yeah. Uh you can go through seasons where maybe you're blaming other people for for that vision not unfolding on the timeline you had in mind.

SPEAKER_03 19:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:16

Well, it's their fault, or maybe it's my fault. You know, I'm a bad person, I'm I'm not good enough, I'm don't measure up. And the patience of God to keep walking you through the years and over time to actually shape you into a person who can actually handle the fulfillment of the dream he gave you. Yes. Um and so it's kind of this dynamic uh of uh yes, I'm calling you to do this and I am going to do it through you. The the part that you don't know in that moment is that you're not ready to actually do it. Right. God knows. Right. But he doesn't tell you that he doesn't tell you that he lets you discover it as you go. Yes. Um, yeah, and that I definitely would attest to that, but I see it all throughout scripture too. Like, you know, David needed to journey through all the ups and downs. And you know, strikingly, David, David uh made many uh unconventional decisions in those development years. Yeah. Um of you know, what does it feel like to have been anointed king and be a he was called a man after God's own heart when he was just really a young boy, like like a young man at least, if not a teenager.

SPEAKER_03 20:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:43

And yet it was many, many years later that he became actually was sitting on the throne as king.

SPEAKER_02 20:51

Um, and so and it was right, and I just think I think about like the how that David, like the things that were refined, even though we know about the incidents, the the couple incidents in the caves where David had the chance to actually take Saul out. And we speak to we've talked about, you know, you know, we preach about those kinds of things about honor and refusing to touch what you know God's anointed, which is true. And God, what what was happening in David's heart, the you know, the the journey, the things that happened at Ziklag, where his family and you know, there was like a bunch of families and were were taken and they had to go and capture those things. There's the, you know, um, uh, it's escaping me now, but it's really just these uh ups and downs, the conflict, the um, you know, the relationship, his friendship, his brotherhood with Jonathan, you know, that that you know was was uh was was a very meaningful part of David's life. And yet it came to an end in the middle of all of this stuff. It had to And because of Saul's basically animosity and desire to kill David, right?

SPEAKER_00 22:06

Incredibly tragic story if you read it. Yes, absolutely. If you read it and live it with them not knowing the future, like just trying to sit with them and the victories that David won on behalf of the king. Right. There's it's just such an incredibly dramatic unfolding story. And yet God was preparing David to be who he be who he became in a shape. God was making him ready to carry the calling on his life. And man, I think in very interesting ways, that happens to all of us. It does. People should not be discouraged. Like you have not you have not ceased to hear from God. Yes. If if you if you received a word years ago, months ago, who knows, a decade or two ago, and you feel like it's just stalled. Yes. Well, I do want to say God's working on you.

What To Do When Trouble Comes

SPEAKER_02 23:03

Yes. And because I think, I mean, again, like just they we've suddenly miraculously arrived at the thing that we wanted to talk about. Yeah, we are. It's like what to do, what to do, like when trouble comes. What what to do when the thing that you've you've felt that God's, you know, even like you might think it's not not think, you might actually believe in in a good way that God has called you, you know, what to do when let me just clarify that. God has called, God has a call and a purpose for everyone. So what what to do when those things, when when opposition comes to those deep, you know, callings, those deep, you know, I believe that God's called me to this. And everything around me, I apparently have stepped into a season where those things are being tested. That call is being tested, things are coming against. Yeah, maybe not in a malicious way, but it seems like certain things aren't working out. Right. It might be, it might be someone has directly opposed, right? You know, is in a situation where they're they're able to oppose uh what God has called you to, but it it's often circumstances. But it's all trouble comes in all shapes, lack of you feel like you're stuck in the mud, you things aren't moving forward. All kinds of things can come into. So I just think that, you know, again, this is a very real thing for believers who are doing their best to that for sure believers' experience this that are they're doing their best. God's called me, I believe it. And all of a sudden I find myself in this season where everything is the circumstances are pointing to the opposite. So what do I do? Right. Right. And so yeah, I don't know if you want to chime in.

SPEAKER_00 24:58

Yeah, no, it's uh it's great. I, you know, um remembering that Jesus spoke very clearly in this world you will have trouble. Yes, but but take heart. Uh I have overcome the world. Uh, you know, we miss we miss the narrative often of how much trouble came against Jesus. Uh you know, to accomplish his his father's will. Yeah. Uh so much trouble came against him. And so why should we expect anything different? Um trouble, Jesus was very clear. Trouble is going to be part of your story, but don't lose heart. Uh and so, yeah, just um there's so many, so many things that um has I feel we could go. No, no, for sure.

SPEAKER_02 25:53

Like, and I think the the one that comes to mind is I was trying to look it up, but it's I think it's like the first chapter of James, uh talking about perseverance, right? Right. And like the outrageous promise, like the the promise of in James, God's word, uh, is is perfection on the other side of perseverance. Persevere, yeah. Right. So trials, yeah. So it's it's it's really like it's the not giving up, it's the the willingness to just you know walk with the Lord through yeah, through the the the trouble, even it's like so I think it's like okay, Lord, I there's there are things that I can control and things that I can't control. Right. And what I can control is how I'm doing in the midst of this to a degree. Right. Like I can, you know, again, like if there's seasons of heaviness, I will I can't promise when that season of heaviness is going to end. But what I can control is my decision to walk with you through this. Right. Right. And yeah, and I think that's the the important, you know, control what you can, choose what you can. Yeah. The enemy would love to in this season of testing, you know, in a season of testing to discourage you into giving up. Right. And so it's like, okay, well, did God really, did God really say, okay, here we go. There's the garden. Yeah. You know, yeah. Did God really say that? Right. And so I think, you know, that, you know, there are opportunities there for certainly for the enemy to have, you know, to have some influence in your life, but there are also opportunities for you to to continually choose to walk with the Lord. Yeah. Through, through which is the you know, the greater reality. It's the greatest reality. Yeah, yeah. To be with the Lord.

SPEAKER_00 27:59

Yeah. Maybe a place to jump in would be to say, uh, I heard a heard a great quote a few months ago uh from Kurt Thompson. And he was talking about, of course, the book of Job, the story of Job. And he and he took he took uh Job's example and he said this, he said, uh, God doesn't explain our suffering. Right. God uses it. Yep. Um and God didn't explain to Job why everything had happened to him. Yes. But he definitely used it in Job's life. Yeah. Um, and he was applying it to our lives because every one of us suffers, runs into trouble. And in in his book, uh The Deepest Place, by the way, great book. I think you've think you've read that one, maybe. I don't know if I've read, I might have it. Yeah, the deepest place. I might have it might be on the list. The deepest place by Kurt Thompson with a C. Kurt.

SPEAKER_02 28:59

Um it's Kurt Kurt, not Kurt, Kurt. Right, yes, that's right. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 29:05

Um The Deepest Place. Uh he he talks about how um everyone suffers to a certain degree in life. Um and how how uh then the book is entitled The Deepest Place. The theory of the book is that that uh all of the things that we dread happening that we hope don't happen to us, all of the trouble we hope doesn't come our way, how we we we shove all of our fears and maybe even pain from past traumas where things have happened to us where we've been betrayed or let down or offended or whatever. We take those things and we tend to shove them down into the deepest place of who we are and hide them away.

SPEAKER_03 29:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:53

And we hope we never have to actually visit that. Yeah. And then we find, of course, our ways of protecting those areas, which become our coping mechanisms and all those things, right? So, and this this man is a he's a counselor psychologist, and so the book does it is that kind of that kind of book, but um, and it comes from a very strongly faith-based Jesus faith uh base. But those deepest places he's talking about are places that we've protected our whole lives. And how how Jesus will actually, if we will let him, Jesus will use those times when we're in trouble or suffering to actually lead us to those places for the sake of healing.

SPEAKER_02 30:37

Yes. Um Because those circumstance allowing by Jesus allowing those circumstances, it that's the that's basically the only way he will get you to confront them. Yes, right.

SPEAKER_00 30:50

He wants to show us we can actually let go of our copening mechanisms and ways we try to protect ourselves. Yes, we can actually let go of those to him, give them over to him, and he can actually enter into those fears and heal us. Yes, and teach us that we are able to handle those things that we thought we couldn't. We're running from. So the book, the the title sounds very poetic and romantic. The deepest place. But actually, it's a it's quite gritty because he's saying these are the deepest places of our lives because we have hidden away down there. And Jesus takes us using our trouble and our suffering, he'll take us to those deeper places and actually help us confront things about us that are limiting us. We don't think they're limiting us, we think we have it under control. Um, the way I often feel about it in my life is, and actually I've experienced some of this in the past couple of years and uh just some of uh just some chronic pain stuff I had dealt with over the last couple of years. I wanted God to just heal me instantly, and I expected at times he was going to. Right. And yet through the trouble of dealing with that, Jesus led me to those deep places and helped me confront some things I needed to deal with. And the way I, the way I kind of imagine it happening is I imagine Jesus and I taking very familiar walks through the house of my life and going down very familiar hallways. And every once in a while he'll slow down next to a certain door that I have shut. Right. It's like he'll slow his pace down and I'll wonder why he's slowing down. And I kind of walk a little faster, hoping he'll move faster with me. And then one day he kind of stops and he goes, huh. I wonder it's when what's in that room. Yeah. And I I go, Oh, we can deal with it later. And then eventually it come the day comes when it's time to open the door in that room. And I'm and I'm grateful for and God does this. I I think probably the classic would be to look at at the disciple Peter. Right. Like how many times throughout the Gospels Peter assumes he knows what Jesus means by what he says and jumps impetuously into fulfilling the agenda. Right. Right. So I think for me, um the way this looks is trouble, trouble, trouble uncovers the ways that we rush ahead of God.

SPEAKER_04 33:24

Right.

SPEAKER_00 33:24

Uh the things that frustrate us in trouble. Like if trouble deeply frustrates us, I usually take that as a clue. God is speaking, but there's something in me that can't receive what he's saying. Right. Like something in me is not okay with his agenda. Right.

SPEAKER_03 33:42

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 33:43

So I very quickly want to blame other people. I want to blame the devil. I want to blame myself. I actually would like to blame God, but I'm a little nervous to do that. You know? But lo and behold, he'll come along, the Holy Spirit will come along and say, you know, the reason you're so frustrated is you're insisting on having this your way.

SPEAKER_03 34:07

Right. Yeah.

Surrender Your Agenda To Jesus

SPEAKER_00 34:08

And I want to help you relax about that. Like to go back to what you were saying. Yeah. Probably the classic, because I know we don't have forever in this conversation. Sure, sure. Probably the classic would be out of, I think it's Matthew chapter 16, where where Jesus is asking the disciples, who do people say I am? Yeah. And and they take these these stabs at it. And then Peter speaks up. He says, I know who you you are. You are you are the Messiah, the Son of the Living God. And Jesus says, Oh, right. You know, Peter, you have spoken well. And this you didn't just come up with this. The father revealed this to you. Who? And upon you, I yes, yeah. Moment. Beautiful.

SPEAKER_03 34:50

Upon this revelation, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:51

Yeah, I knew it. Peter's like, yeah, you know, however, he responded, but you know, you are, and upon this rock I will build my church. And I'll give you the gate, the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and that beautiful scripture. Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven. Yeah. Whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. Wonderful moment. And I'm sure the other guys are looking at Peter thinking, you friggin' jerk.

SPEAKER_02 35:15

Like, or like who is or like, or like even maybe with a little bit of jealousy or something. Like that guy. That guy. Right, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 35:24

And then apparently it seems like within the very same conversation, Jesus is explaining all the things he's going to have to suffer. Trouble's going to come upon us, guys. You need to start getting ready. Trouble's coming. In fact, it's going to go as bad as you can imagine, it's going to go there. Yeah. They're actually going to take me away and they're actually going to execute me. Yeah. And I have to suffer these things. Right.

SPEAKER_02 35:48

And Peter's like, now that he's, you know, the con the most spiritual person in the room.

SPEAKER_00 35:56

Now that he's got the keys of the kingdom, he's like, you know, like, no, that's not the way it's going to go down, Jesus. And he argues, Jesus. And Jesus says that classic, you know, that classic thing that we've heard. Yeah. You know, to Peter saying, get behind me, Satan. And he says, You have in mind the concerns of man, not the concerns of God. Right. Learn to learn to have on your mind the concerns of God. Yeah. That's good. And so to me, it's it's it it that that to me is a classic conversation for us to consider. Um that I I think it's like this, Anthony. God designing us to hear from him, and in his desire for us to want to hear from him and to dig into scripture, to to spend time contemplatively listening to God, being open to words from other people, learning to hear God's voice is not for the sake of our independence from him.

SPEAKER_04 36:59

Correct.

SPEAKER_00 37:00

Like he's correct. He doesn't want us to get great at creating the best agendas so that we can take his word and run with it. The end of it is he wants to take all those skills we gain and hearing him. And in the midst of trouble, he wants us to surrender all of that to his agenda.

SPEAKER_03 37:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:20

Saying yes, God, to your word, but probably not in the way I thought it was going to happen.

SPEAKER_02 37:24

Yeah. I agree. And I think the thing is, is like there's a little bit of fear, right? When we think about trouble, right, if I'm honest, there's a little bit of you know, fear because no one, no one wants to put themselves in, you know, in in trouble's way. No one wants to invite trouble upon themselves. And so there's a little bit of fear, like what, like the probably a little bit like how how like that won't feel great, agreed. It won't and doesn't. But I I think it's like it's like like even in the midst of that, and I would say this based on um based on personal experience and who I know God to be and who and who the word says that he is.

SPEAKER_00 38:17

And probably who you know you to be. Yes, and who I know to be.

The Greater Reality In Trials

SPEAKER_02 38:20

But I would say this, I think there's there's there is a dual reality. There is a dual reality, and I think the testimony of the church, even over the over the ages, is similar to this, is that yes, trouble comes, and yes, trouble, the Lord allows trouble to come to to our life. Uh, and it is not pleasant to go through. However, there is also another reality in the midst of trouble. There is a greater reality in the midst of trouble in that there is the presence of Jesus in the midst of trouble. Oh man. And that, you know, and again, like the invitation, the invitation, you know, and the truth of the word, you know, the promise, like I'm never gonna leave you or forsake you, and the the the reality that, you know, that there's a revelation of that he doesn't he doesn't think less of you because of trouble. He actually thinks pretty highly of you because of the season of trouble and your in your perseverance. Like it isn't like you the greater reality is that you get to walk through trouble. Perhaps, um, dare I say, in this season of our life, like, you know, to hint at a you know, a Bill Johnson quote, there are things that we will do in this life that we may never get to do in in eternity, right? It's like there are there are the gift of like I will I will look back at my life and I will be grateful that for those seasons of trouble because I was able to learn, I was able to depend on God in a way. I was able to choose make choices to lean into God, you know, even if I was angry, right? Even if I was frustrated, even if the, you know, in the midst of, you know, there were there certainly have been plenty of tears, even if there was, you know, despair, I was able to do those things walking with the Lord. Yeah. Right. And that to me, like he is the greater reality, even in the midst of it being entirely unpleasant. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Uh, even in the midst of it being entirely, I guess, unpleasant may even be an understatement. You know, there are tragic things that people will walk through in life. And, you know, and we've known plenty plenty of, we've heard plenty of stories about even in the darkest of days, the presence of Jesus. Um, just the presence of Jesus in the middle of those troubles took um, you know. I don't I it's hard, I'm kind of but they but he was able to change that experience. He was able to redeem that experience. He was able to be present here as peace in the middle of that experience. Like he is the greater reality in that in those seasons of your life. He just is. Yeah, and he's able to do that in a way so that, and again, he's able to redeem those seasons of your life in a way that you are thankful for them. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Even in the midst of utter tragedy, right? And I think that's the testimony of the church, even throughout these last, you know, death and uh even even sickness and even uh despairing and even uh you know being subject to utter cruelty, those things, the over and over, over and over, the testimony of Jesus in the middle of those things has been he's better. And I'm thankful that I was able to because I experienced Jesus in a way that was uh that that made you know that utterly redeemed that what you know what most people would say, like, how did you do that? Right. So really darkness. Anyway, so I just I love that. I love that so much. I think I just to me that's the thing is like that that while you and I cannot promise and guarantee how tomorrow will, you know, we can't guarantee how the rest of this our lives will unfold.

SPEAKER_00 43:00

Right.

SPEAKER_02 43:00

We can make plans, right? And and we do. Um, but it's really this point of is that, yeah, we know there's gonna be trouble, we know that there's gonna be testing, we know that there's gonna be opportunities to persevere because God is a good father. Uh, but he will, he will, you know, he will be present. And so that's the part where it's like, okay, so I have to, I have to just keep going to him.

SPEAKER_00 43:29

Yeah, yeah. Oh man. So to for for for people who have listened this far, as we often say in our episodes, thank you, thank you for doing that. Um Jesus' presence with us, like to share, like maybe I would say I'd like to to share a piece of glorious news with everybody who's listening up to this point. That is that is in the most incredibly comforting. Realization that you can have that Jesus is present with you in your troubles, but I want to warn you, it's probably the most daunting reality because he's present in your trials not just to comfort and get you through, but he's actually showing you that you can handle more than you thought you could. Yes. And he's actually revealing and bringing to bringing to the surface through those trials the gold that is in you. Yes. And I just had confession time. I often don't enjoy that process. Like I like I do not look forward to finding out how much I can take. I'd rather just take Jesus' word for it. Yeah. But He He will walk me through situations just to show me what He has built into me. I didn't think I could do that, Jesus. And yet with you I did just to go back to looking back on your life to say, wow, look at the things that I endured and even was triumphantly led through because of Jesus' presence. Yes. The amazing thing is Jesus knew that about you all along.

unknown 45:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:14

Like He knew He knew there was more in you than you thought you could handle. I just want to say that over everyone, like we we are foolish to think that our life with Jesus for the sake of God's kingdom on earth as it is in heaven, it this is not going to be an easy road. And anyone tries to sell you the latest, you know, the latest idea to create the this this walk of the kingdom into an easy road, please don't buy it. Right. Because it is going to be difficult, and yet we're doing it with Jesus in partnership with Jesus.

SPEAKER_03 45:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:54

Um and it's just anyway, it's a well- It's a glorious journey. It is a glorious journey. It's not easy. Yes, for sure.

Prophetic Encouragement Calls Out Gold

SPEAKER_02 46:00

And I think I think the thing that comes to mind is like how much more in these, you know, in this reality that we live in is the need for the prophetic voice to, you know, according to you know, First Corinthians 14, 3, that in the midst of the ups and downs, how much more is the the prophetic voice of the church to uh which is the Holy Spirit speaking through the church, through individuals, but generally speaking, the Holy Spirit at work through the church to build up, to stir up, to cheer up, right? To edify, to to exhort uh and to console, right? To to the like how much more do we need? And again, I feel like there's a there's really a a really a timely talking about the prophetic voice of the church. I think we maybe hit that next week. But uh but you know, but I would say how much more in this see like there is a reason why, right? God, God isn't, you know, God is a God is interested in uh in in engaging other people to to see the things that he sees about me are he's in as much as he see the let me try and cons uh not ramble but be concise about this. The things that the Lord sees, the gold that he's refining, he sees that, but he's also interested in showing other people that same thing. Yes, he's also interested in inviting people. Hey, when you look at Anthony, see this little nugget of gold. I want you to call that out. Yeah, right. When you look at Dan, when you look at Dan, when you look at whatever, who else? When you look at Dan, the prophetic voice of the church is invited to see the gold that the Holy Spirit already sees. And then when we call that out, like again, you know, I don't want to, you could slide off into why words matter. And again, we've covered we've covered those kinds of things.

SPEAKER_00 48:20

This is a good track while you're going.

SPEAKER_02 48:22

But but I just think that there is a glorious invitation. And this is the, you know, perhaps, you know, we are we are definitely not like we've never not been, but we are definitely in a season where the prophetic voice of the church needs like needs to grow. Yeah. Even as it relates to, you know, again, the prophetic voice of the church isn't, you know, just about uh what's gonna happen next year. Yeah, right. It is it is about seeing with the Holy Spirit in in partnership, right? In union with with God, seeing the things in our brothers and sisters and calling those things out.

SPEAKER_00 49:08

Wow. This yeah, so powerful picture for me is what if the gold you see in me and you call out is hidden in that room that I've kept closed. Totally, and I'm afraid to let Jesus or anybody else. Totally, right?

SPEAKER_02 49:27

Like and you and at some deep level, you're aware of that, but you may not even want to admit it. Yep. Right. And that's a that's the thing that I've found about even prophetic words. Even the prophetic words that I've received over over the prophetic, even encouragement um, you know, that I've received over the years has undoubtedly hit some of those places where I'm like, uh oh. Yeah. I know where it's maybe something I've not occurred before, but when I hear it, I know it's right.

SPEAKER_00 50:03

Man, that's so good.

SPEAKER_02 50:04

Yeah, absolutely. And that's like that's the that's the power. There's power in, and it's the power is not in the words themselves. The power is the partnership, the alignment with the Holy Spirit, like with God Himself. Yeah, right. The alignment was, you know, when you know, if the Holy Spirit's like, hey, that thing that you see in that person, I want you to call that out because I see that. And they don't see it. But when you do, something will happen in them. Then something eternal will awaken within them. So that's again, that's that's you know, that's very much in a line with that first Corinthians 14.

SPEAKER_00 50:43

Yes. Can I just share a quick word, word, quick wisdom word from our friend Amy Howard? Yeah, yes. I feel like we need to give her a shout out. Most episodes, yes, Amy and Justin, we love you. Uh, with it within Counterculture Mission Collaborative. Um, she likes to talk about how how these rooms of your life, the process is the Holy Spirit wants to come in and clean out that room. Yeah. With your permission, invitation, wants to come in and clean out that room. And instead of kicking you out of the room, he invites you back into the room to grow up into that room. Yes. Like he wants to dwell there with you. Yeah. Which sometimes we miss that. We think it's almost like the Holy Spirit wants to dwell in that room of my life without me. Right. When really he wants to clear it out, invite you back into that room so you can grow up into it. And I think that kind of fits with this. Okay, so somebody calls out a word about you that's gold, God wants to reveal, but you know it's hidden away in a place you're afraid to go there. Yeah. I want to encourage you. God doesn't want to kick you out of that room. Yeah. The Holy Spirit wants to go in, clear it, clean it, invite you back in to be able to grow up into that room in your house. And you know, um, let's be encouraged. This is, yeah, love it. Love it. Yeah.

Prayer For Grace In Hard Seasons

SPEAKER_02 52:10

Thanks for the conversation. Yeah. Well, I just let's just pray real quick, like for just um for anybody in a in a troubled season. So then we can we can call it. So Lord, we just Father, we just come before you, just thankful for your word, thankful for the truth of your word, thankful that the promise of Jesus is that he will never leave us or forsake us, that he is with us always. That's right, always. And so, and I thank you, Lord. I thank you, Holy Spirit, for your indwelling presence presence. Father, spirit, son, thank you for your indwelling presence, Lord. So we just honor you, God. I just pray for anyone listening, Lord. I pray for myself, Lord. I pray for Dan. I just pray for us all, Lord, that we in these as we face trials, as we face troubles, Lord, I pray, Lord, for eyes to see the greater reality, which is that you that that Emmanuel, God with us, Lord, that you are walking with us. Lord, and I and and you are infinitely patient, Lord, to me. Lord, you deal with me far better than I deserve. Lord, and you deal with us far better than we deserve, Lord. And so, God, I pray for grace. I pray for great grace for those listening who are in the midst of a troubling season. Lord, I pray for encouragement, Lord, that these words, Lord, would be encouraging. And so, Lord, I just pray, Lord, for the days ahead, Lord, that may they be, Lord, I want to just even um just declare like the troubling season is not gonna be forever. Yes, amen. That it is going to end. There is going to be a day where the trouble will not be not be present. So, Lord, I thank you for that. Like I thank you for promises like that. That that these days will not last forever. Yes, Lord. And so we just pray great grace, great encouragement, Lord, on all our hearts, Lord. We just thank you. We love you in Jesus' name. Amen.

Closing And Share The Podcast

SPEAKER_00 54:18

Amen. Well, that's a wrap on this episode. It's been a privilege to have you as an honored guest as we all learn to hear God better.

SPEAKER_02 54:28

If your time with us has been encouraging and you think this conversation will be helpful to others, we would love it if you could share this podcast with the people around you. Until next time.