The Hearing God Podcast
Anthony Moore and Dan Lamos have met for coffee every week for over a decade. You're invited to listen in on their conversation on The Hearing God Podcast. Explore the prophetic, mystical, and heart-centered aspects of a life filled with the Holy Spirit. Each episode offers insights, inspiration, and practical wisdom to deepen your spiritual journey. Tune in for authentic and encouraging conversations that will enrich and empower your walk with God.
The Hearing God Podcast
2. Unveiling Kingdom Power: The True Nature of Discipleship
Questions? Fun God stories? Let us know!
What does it really mean to be "like Christ"? In this soul-stirring conversation, Dan and Anthony dismantle the false notion that Christ-likeness is simply about moral behavior. They reveal how Jesus himself operated in partnership with the Holy Spirit—setting a pattern of dependence we're meant to follow, not just admire.
Welcome to the Hearing God Podcast. I'm Anthony Moore.
Speaker 2:And I'm Dan Lamas. For over a decade, anthony and I have been diving deep into weekly conversations about the prophetic, the mystical and the matters of the heart.
Speaker 1:And we invite you into these weekly conversations. We hope you feel like an honored guest at our table, so pull up a chair, settle in and let's get started at our table.
Speaker 2:So, pull up a chair, settle in and let's get started. Here we are. Yes, here we are, wednesday morning. Yeah, that's the sign that we can now engage in intelligent conversation. That's right, well, here we are. Yeah, just you know Maybe. So here we are, we may as well just talk about are.
Speaker 1:Yeah, just you know Maybe. So here we are. We may as well just talk about stuff.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, just so you know for the record, when we come here we're just coming straight from the prayer room, the early morning prayer room and really fun praying into Baptism Sunday. This particular Sunday coming up here in a few days is going to be Baptism Sunday at all of our King's Church locations and that was our prayer focus in the prayer room. I don't know. It was fun to even just give an hour to focusing on that, like letting God lead us through praying over the whole thing of baptism. I found that very.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I think it's like about praying about everything. Yeah, for sure, and I think it's like about praying about everything you know it is. The more you walk with the Lord, the longer I do this, the more it's just a gift to him, the more I believe that it's not a burden for him to or like it's not annoying for him to hear my request, or it's not a burden for him, to that we just talk to him about everything.
Speaker 1:And that's just a thing that I've just discovered. There is just a gift of talking to him, and it could be about anything, right, right, but the gift is actually. The gift is talking to him and and it could be about just anything.
Speaker 2:But yeah, today it was about baptism.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know that's. That's kind of a fun thought.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's kind of a fun thought.
Speaker 2:Yeah, one of Linda's and my son's I'm not going to mention his name in case he actually hears this podcast and is embarrassed by me telling this story, but one of my son's, whenever we would, when he was a kid and we would go to see a movie together or really pretty much most experiences, but definitely when we would go and watch a movie together, as soon as we would jump in the car to head home, the first thing he wanted to talk about was Dad, what was your favorite part of the movie? And whatever our experience was, he'd often want to ask that question Dad, what was your favorite part? And I think when you were just talking about praying, about everything that's what I imagine.
Speaker 2:It's like we're turning to God and saying God, what was your favorite part? It's like he likes the interaction. Like I didn't know what my favorite part of the movie was, I usually had to make up. Grab some scene but I love the fact that he wanted to know, like and sometimes prayer is as basic as that like god, this is baptism, sunday's coming up. Yeah, what's your favorite part about baptism? Like that would be a fair thing yeah, that's god in prayer.
Speaker 2:You know, yeah, um, there was something that that came up in the in our praying that I thought I would just lob it out there, see, see if we want to chat about it a little bit. But the one of our, one of our prayer kind of points in the intercession part, supplicationation part, I guess, making requests to God was that he would stretch out his hand and do healing signs and wonders in the mighty name of Jesus. And it just recalls out of Acts 4, actually, where Peter and John come back from the temple, yeah, yeah, I had it all set on my phone and now I'm having to find it again.
Speaker 2:But that Consider their threats, Stretch out your hand to heal yeah stretch out your hand to heal and perform signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant, jesus. Yeah, like's just just intrigued me as we prayed into that. How, just how fresh and unique that is, and I think what I found myself praying was God. It's wild to me that a couple millennia later, as we're praying, as we're reciting this prayer again to you, it still feels like our expectation of God doing that very thing is kind of low.
Speaker 2:It's kind of like an outlier, like that he would do that seems like okay. I guess so, and there's a certain amount of hang-ups like oh, 100, you know, just like, like, should we expect that to happen?
Speaker 1:uh, what can? I just say can I just say too, like I think we get it, this is, this is in the area of like, well, we just you know, pursue the giver, not the gift, kind of deal, like we pursue knowing God and not what he can do which is true, but it's like oftentimes, I think as like that what that statement does right in the heart of a person is tend to overcorrect, right? Is that I'm gonna stop asking God to stretch out his hand?
Speaker 1:to heal and'm just going to focus on, like reading my bible, praying every day, getting getting to know him, like I would just say like right, you know, it's just funny as if it's more noble yeah, as if it's as if it's more noble to to ask to just know god and not have him do his work right amongst amongst his people yeah, and I, I, I, that's, that's how I feel sometimes when I hear that statement and and yet there is truth to that statement.
Speaker 1:Right there is. There is a complaint that jesus has about the jews is that they all they're always looking for a sign I, I know Right, I know. And yet that was a little bit their dysfunction too, because they missed, you know, like the ones who should have recognized the Messiah missed him completely, Right, and that was one of his complaints about you know the. Pharisees. So dare I say, the um perspective would be the both and right, yeah, be like pray like god.
Speaker 1:We want to know you, we want to know all the things. We want to pray like you know, like ephesians paul says in ephesians, that you would know the love that surpasses knowledge right. We want to know him and the power of his resurrection, the fellowship of his suffering, those kinds of things, and yet, like understanding that, I think this is where I put my head, and my heart is that he wants to do those things, right, yeah.
Speaker 1:Like this is like we, I have definitely lived in that world, maybe that worldview where I wasn't sure that God was a God who wanted to demonstrate his power Right. And the longer that I've lived, the longer that I've walked with the Lord, the more that I realized that he wants to do these things Like his hand.
Speaker 1:However that I've lived, the longer that I've walked with the Lord, the more that I realize that he wants to do these things Right, Like His hand. However, that moves towards us, whether that's a healing or whether that's provision or whether that's some other kind of thing. The more I've walked with the Lord, I realize that he takes delight in providing for His kids yeah. So he delights in moving on our behalf through the name of Jesus or in the name of Jesus? Yeah, he delights in that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. So I mean that is a great point, that there is a dynamic to that. It isn't just about I need another sign to convince me that you're the Messiah Jesus, like yes. So I led out in a prayer in the prayer room out of that scripture and as I was doing it I was just being reminded that Jesus had said at one point, when the religious leaders were coming against him as if his message and what he was doing was not legit.
Speaker 2:He said if it is by the power of the Holy Spirit that I drive out demons and perform these miracles, then the kingdom has come amongst you. So it was a sign to them. It should have been a sign to them that the kingdom of heaven had come amongst them.
Speaker 2:The kingdom of God had come amongst them. And oftentimes, when we're praying, when we're praying again that prayer, god, would you come and perform healing signs and wonders, miracles, in the name of Jesus, stretch out your hand and do that. That it really is a clash of kingdoms. There's the kingdom of darkness, the kingdom of God, kingdom of heaven, interchangeable. The kingdom of God is supreme and is present and it shifts it into a bigger picture.
Speaker 2:To recognize that when a healing happens or a miracle happens, it's a great blessing to us, yes, but in the bigger picture, it is a sign of something that's true, yes, that the kingdom of God reigns supremely and is present. Yeah, and it is in the name of the Lord Jesus, and it is in the name of the Lord Jesus. So it's just an intriguing road to go down and to pray into asking for God to move that way. So this Sunday is Baptism Sunday, and so you've got water, baptism and you have the baptism of the Holy Spirit and because of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, the signs of the wind and the fire, that, um, just just a, a hunger and an excitement, uh, in my heart over, uh, over the fact that that, that god still god's like, how do I say this? Like the, the kingdom of god is a very real thing, yes, and it has. It has triumphed, it has has overcome the kingdom of darkness which holds people in bondage in many ways, and so, when healing signs and wonders what the signs of, what the signs of his kingdom, yeah, and so I just say more of that and I think that, I think the the, the amazing, the, the amazing dynamic that again, a couple minutes, millennia later, there's still so much, so many hang-ups over that uh is is almost a sign of it's important like like yeah
Speaker 2:like the, the fact that it would still be an issue to say oh, what do you mean? What do you mean? Yeah, uh, aren't, aren't what you've already seen? Isn't that enough? Like, yeah, like what do you? What do you mean? Are you demanding god does this? It's like, well, I'm praying a dangerous prayer because I believe God wants, he wants the active presence of his kingdom. Yeah. And from what I understand you know, god's kingdom is anywhere. God rules. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And when God rules, you're going to see signs that it's true. Yes, so we're saying God, we welcome the signs that your kingdom is actually in charge.
Speaker 1:yeah, like whatever that is, and yeah, I would say like again, I would agree with you, like some of these things, like I know that you know even the things that we're involved in and we the things that we lead in terms of just partnering with the Holy Spirit, whether it's any kind of like prophetic and I just say prophetic because that's just sort of a little bit- of the umbrella.
Speaker 1:But I would just say that I have been a part of. I've heard so many stories about churches and people and experiences where a lot of that has gone wrong for people. People have heard maybe it was even maybe the thing that was said, maybe that's what they've heard and so they've internalized some kind of dysfunctional view of you know of what it is to have the holy spirit move in and through you, and whether that that's through tongues.
Speaker 1:We all know that there are lots of places where you would go and tongues is a very heavy handed thing and on, like either way. Right, like there would be where tongues is almost a requirement to get into heaven, or tongues is such a hot button item that we just leave it alone entirely, or we believe it wasn't even a thing. And so, of course, it would seem like the importance of these things would be the place where the enemy might seek to sow all kinds of Cringe, might seek to sow all kinds of you know, you know cringe.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Seek to sow doubt unbelief, all these kinds of things, and so, and I mean you can't I mean any kind of healthy conversation about what that might look like would have to acknowledge, yeah, okay, humans we do a great job of messing things up and we do a good job of, you know things, making things messy, but I, I think it doesn't. It uh, I think I'm gonna butcher the quote, but I think, uh, I think bill johnson says, like the you know how to, how to hit. In essence, he says, like how to uh combat dysfunction isn't like, it isn't to ignore the thing altogether, it isn't disused, right?
Speaker 2:it's actually to operate in a healthy way, that's 100 anthony's paraphrase or whatever that quote is.
Speaker 1:But that's in essence what, like, when you see an abuse, when you see something dysfunctional, the fix for that isn't to not do the thing. The fix is actually to do the thing in the healthy way, right, To keep pushing for the plumb line, to fight for the establishing of a thing in a healthy way, and so I just think that, that's, you know, the sign of abuse, is really the sign. Or even a counterfeit like we I think we hit that a little bit this morning too is like even the places where we do see counterfeit, you know, the fix isn't to just not do it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's right. The fix is to go after the genuine.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's right and that we would be a people that would actually walk in the genuine and be really self you know, honest about how we do things. Right, Be self-examine ourselves. Yeah, that's interesting.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:That we would be self-aware. That's the word, that's the term I'm looking for.
Speaker 2:Well, there's always a pull to want to contain things when they get messy or awkward or whatever. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And man, that's. You know, what makes it so intriguing is we can look back through history, the history of the church, yeah, agreed, history of the, the people of god, but at least look at the history of the church. It's not neat and tidy, no. And we assume god regrets that? Yeah, but we don't know that he regrets that. Right Like there's something about the unfolding, inexhaustible, inexhaustible grace of God that redeems things, right Like I'm amazed at just when I'm writing somebody off, god matures them and teaches them in his way and turn around and they're being very fruitful for his kingdom and God's opening brand new doors for them. And I'm stepping back going. Wait a second, I had written them off. How did they all of a sudden show up as a very fruitful member of God's kingdom?
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, I would say I'd say too that like we can sort of look at our own life and say that you know, god has me on a journey right. Like I'm not the same person that I was a week ago or 10 years ago. Right, I think we have to look at humanity in that same sense. We're not the same humanity or, dare I say, the church is not the same as it was 2000 years ago. But there's actually a narrative that God's weaving.
Speaker 1:We know where the end goal is. We know that God is working his bride out in us that he's working, that we're gonna look like him on that day, the day of the Lord, we're going to look like him and I think, well, just let me throw that in there too is like the fact that God is produced and again we've talked about this a ton of times but the fact that you and I are going to look like Jesus let me just caveat that we're not going to be Jesus.
Speaker 1:We're going to look like him. That always leads. That actually is a motivator in my life where it's like okay, it isn't just that I behave like Jesus or I behave myself, it is actually that I do the things that Jesus did and go. Well, this is a model for me, right? It isn't just that I get my crap together and I don't sin, right. It isn't just that, but holy living is actually becoming like Jesus and doing the things that he did, and so I go well, okay, so how did he do those things?
Speaker 1:All right, and again, just to sort of include this too, when you read the book of Acts you see the disciples doing the things that Jesus did by the power of the Holy Spirit, by the indwelling and the clothing in power kind of deal.
Speaker 1:So I would say that this is what a Spirit-filled and Spirit-led life is supposed to look like, and this is as swinging back to what I was saying about what God is doing is when we see that, the bride that he's forming in us. So, whether that's Anthony, whether that's King's Church, whether that's the capital C Church on the earth, the end result is that we're gonna look like him, we're gonna do the kinds of things that he did.
Speaker 1:And so there's a progression to that, there's a narrative to that, and then to address your point, I would say that I hesitate to quickly cast judgment on things that may be a little messier than I like, right. Or people that may show up and go well, okay, I don't know what to make of you, but all right, you know what I'm saying. Yeah, there's all kinds of people throughout history that were used by God mightily, and just happened to be a little bit of a mess.
Speaker 2:And as I find myself often when I get an opportunity to speak somewhere to teach, I often will want to remind people that we don't actually belong to ourself. We're made by God. We are not our own. Scripture tells us. That's actually true about everyone. That's true about someone who's never given any consideration to the gospel.
Speaker 2:One of the things that they need to be awakened to in the process is they don't belong to themselves. They're acting as if they do, but that's actually out of bounds and not. That's actually not a legitimate way for a human being to live as if they belong to themselves and that causes all kinds of destruction and problems in people's lives. It's where sin comes from. It's a whole big picture but that carries through in a person who does embrace the gospel and surrenders the gospel and believe in the heart and come into this awakening to their relationship with Jesus. It continues to be a journey of oh yeah, I'm learning that I don't belong to myself, that ultimately, I am God's property and I'm his dwelling place. So when God doesn't give up on someone, it isn't just for their sake, like when God doesn't give up on me, it's because I'm his.
Speaker 1:Right, so it's for his sake.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it really is for his sake and for his glory.
Speaker 2:But the amazing nature of the Trinity is that there's this beautiful communion, this selfless love that just functions within God, and so there's this reality when we, uh, we actually, we were praying out of ephesians 1, you know that that god has, uh, that god has set us in the heavenly realms and he has, by his grace, he has saved us for the uh, for the praise of his glory. Yeah, you know, um, that his glory, ultimately, is the point. Yeah, um, but we are made for his glory, yeah, so we're not this, we're not this being, that sort of got dropped at his doorstep one day when we were born. Yeah, and god came out his front door and said, oh, look at this, it's a. What is this? Oh, it's a living creature.
Speaker 2:I wonder who this is? Like he, yeah, like we. There's this, we. We were designed for god's glory, so we belong to him. And where I was going to go with that is that, um, that this thing of you know, looking like and living like Jesus, that's so powerful, because I forget who it was. Oh, our friend, what is his name? Anthony, our pastor friend in Ontario, who wrote the book.
Speaker 1:Deliverance John.
Speaker 2:Thompson. John Thompson, yeah. I really all of his writing is really great and he has some great insight on looking like and being like. Jesus means we functioned the way he did, and he points out that Jesus functioned in partnership with the Holy Spirit and with the Father yeah, and that Jesus was. Jesus operated in the anointing of the Holy Spirit and with the Father, and that Jesus operated in the anointing of the.
Speaker 2:Holy Spirit. He was filled with the Spirit. He was baptized. We make use of spiritual gifts. God makes use of his spiritual gifts and graces to accomplish his will in the same way that Jesus did that. So he points out, jesus ministered in the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and I think to a lot of people that's a new idea. Well, jesus didn't need the Holy Spirit. Jesus was God Like, yes, he was, but God. It is. But God operates in community. You know, jesus was the word. He became flesh. Yeah, and so when we read a verse out of like first john, which says if anyone claims to live in him, they must walk as jesus did, yeah, that includes being filled with the spirit and operating in the gifts of the spirit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think it's just to throw in there too, like like jesus did lay down to a, to a significant degree, his god card. Right if you, if you believe whatever, I think it's like philippians yeah yeah, the can the uh, cannot not kenosis is that the right word? Uh, anyway just the just. He did not consider equality with. God, but submitted himself to death, even death on the cross.
Speaker 2:That whole outline there. Yeah, yeah, yeah right.
Speaker 1:But I think that's part of it too, like I think if you look at, you know that's been my verse, one of my verses for 13 years. It's like that John 5, 19, where Jesus said the Son of man can't do anything outside of what he sees his Father doing. So he's actually like Jesus, like gladly God in the flesh has.
Speaker 2:That wasn't a regrettable statement, that was Right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's like he's established boundaries in that the Son of man, that Jesus himself, would not do anything out of what he saw his Father doing on the earth while he was in flesh. He was looking for what his Father was doing.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And then John 16, 13 is the other one, where the Spirit of truth, the Holy Spirit, when he comes, he'll guide you in all truth. And then part of that verse there is that he won't speak on his own, except what he hears.
Speaker 1:Yes, right, so there's a little bit of like, I think, but I just back to focusing on Jesus here for a second while he was on the earth, like considering what he laid down, considering how he modeled life, what he went through, the fact that he was baptized, the fact that, you know, the Holy Spirit did come down and descend on him, the fact that he, you know, Then he went up into the. There was that, there were those elements of what he experienced that are mirrors or that foreshadowed the things that we would go through. Right, the baptism, the Holy Spirit. So it's just to say that it's not, it's not correct to view the things that Jesus did, the way he lived his life in relationship with the Father. It's not correct to say that that was something else that we're not invited into. Right, he definitely was a model for us and again, we say that all the time we wanna be Christ-like.
Speaker 1:Everybody who's a Christian, whether you're Whatever flavor of Christianity that you come from, whatever denomination, the journey is to Christ-likeness. The problem is, is what we define as Christ Christlike? Most times and we've talked about this for years, about lots of people think Christlikeness is just behaving yourself, Right, Right, Whereas that nature or that word or the thing of pursuing Christlikeness is actually demonstrating the kingdom of God. Yeah, Both in your character, but also in the things that happen when you walk into a room. Right, when Dan Lamas walks into a room, Christ and Dan the hope of glory walks into the room, and so that should mean something that the kingdom of heaven. Maybe it's a room full of unbelievers. Well, good news room full of unbelievers, the kingdom of God has come near you by Christ and Dan the hope of glory.
Speaker 2:Exactly right.
Speaker 1:Right, you know what I'm saying, I do, so it's like and I think this is a message that is hard, it's easy to go. Well, I haven't prayed for anybody and I can't remember the last time God answered a prayer. I certainly haven't prayed for anybody and they've gotten healed. I've prayed for provision.
Speaker 1:I'm still waiting on that, those kinds of things, and it's easy to go well that must not be for me, for me, and so you build this resume of I guess you build this, you know document of experience where it's not or god's not moving through you, oh man, but that's not this is so good.
Speaker 2:Yeah, anyway, and I have a few thoughts on that but I do want to mention the word kenosis yeah, that was you're right, so it is kenosis, and so just for for people to be curious here, k-e-n-o-s-i-s.
Speaker 2:Kenosis in christian theology is a rough definition, the the renunciation of the divine nature, at least in part, by christ in the incarnation, yeah, so, and there's kenosis is a word, yeah, so I that is what you were just talking about is very profound. Uh, in being like jesus there is there is a difference between pretending to be like jesus, yeah, and there's a difference between that and embracing the life of our rabbi yeah, like. The idea of being a disciple came from that Hebrew model of there. Might be a group of you that are looking for a rabbi to follow who could disciple you, you that are looking for a rabbi to follow who could disciple you. So back in the day, you would attach yourself to a rabbi, like, for instance, in the gospels, john actually had some disciples, john the Baptist, and they saw him as their mentor, their coach. But it was more profound than that. These young men would become apprentices to their rabbi to talk the way he talks, eat. At this time, I learned his diet, I learned to be disciplined the way he is, I eat the way he eats, I followed the same kind of patterns he follows, and so on. So to be someone's disciple meant you, in a sense, you mature and you get there the way your rabbi got there, like the way your rabbi has arrived at this way of life that you look at and you say, yeah, that's exemplary and he's living the kingdom. Okay, well, I'm exemplary and he's living the kingdom. Okay, well, I'm gonna be like that.
Speaker 2:So when Jesus calls us to be disciples, and when he called his original disciples, they understood it that way. They were doing things the way their rabbi did them. We shift things here. A couple thousand years later, we have shifted things to it. Being a disciple is to pretend to be like jesus. Right, it's pretending, it's practicing to be like jesus instead of understanding that jesus was born, he was. He was an infant, he was a boy, he grew to be a man. Scripture says he grew in wisdom, stature and favor with God and man. Yep.
Speaker 2:And then in Acts it talks about Jesus being anointed by the Holy Spirit. He went around doing good and setting people free who were oppressed by the devil, and there's other scriptures where it talks about Jesus maturing and becoming Learning obedience. Yeah, learning obedience.
Speaker 2:Like we don't, we minus that out of the discipleship process. We jump right to looking at the full-blown adult version of earthly life, jesus, and saying, okay, jump to mirroring that behavior. We forget that. No, you need to get to maturity the way Jesus got to maturity and recognizing it could take you a lifetime to continue to grow into your discipleship. Dare I say it will take you.
Speaker 1:It will, it should. Maybe.
Speaker 2:that's the joy of it is that it should, but that's a different thing than pretending. But it's subtle though, isn't it? Because we have spiritual practices, yeah so, but it's important to see like prayer times, Bible reading, you know, disciplines of your life which are like spiritual disciplines and habits. They're to be seen as bridges to intimacy, the way Jesus had intimacy with the Holy Spirit. Why did Jesus have times of prayer? Why did he pray regularly? Well, he did that in order to have intimacy with the Father and the Holy Spirit. The habits of his life were not because this is the way a good guy lives the habits of his life were not because this is the way a good guy lives.
Speaker 2:Right, it was. These are ways that I stay tapped into intimacy with my Father and the Holy Spirit, and so you should do the same, my disciples. If you're going to operate in the same anointing of the Holy Spirit and go about doing good and delivering people from the effects of darkness, well, it's going to happen as you practice the same habits.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think this is like we were talking or praying a little bit this morning into the gifts of the Spirit and the fruit of the Spirit.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes yes, and.
Speaker 1:I think that's the and again this isn't a foreign concept for at least people that are from our house that might be listening to this is that we talk about Galatians 5.22, the gifts of the Spirit love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, meekness. I don't know, I'm drawing a blank. Gentleness, gentleness, self-control.
Speaker 1:But we talk about those things, those attributes, and everyone would go, yeah, I want to be like that, but how we get there is the question. Right, do I go? Well, I have to be more loving. So I'm just going to go through the day trying to be more loving, right, or? But we fail to. We fail to, uh, we fail to realize that those are actually fruit and not um, you know the discipline, you know what I'm saying? Like this, actually a byproduct. Right, fruit is a byproduct. Fruit is a byproduct of a seed being planted, growing, being watered, weeded, and then fruit comes. So we have to look at the fruit of the Spirit in the same way.
Speaker 1:It's that when we're connected to God, where we do practice the disciplines but we also lean into genuine connection with God, like knowing Him, like conversing, hearing the two-way conversation, talking to God and hearing from God. In whatever way that happens, the more that walking with the Lord, being mindful of Him every day, doing the things, so all of that full of him every day you know doing the things. And so all of that, all of that inevitably, just and I would say 100%, inevitably produces fruit. Right, and the fruit? That fruit is Galatians 5.22.
Speaker 2:Yeah agreed.
Speaker 1:So and again, like I think and I think the gifts are, the gifts are the same way that these are, are the same way that these are their signs that the Holy Spirit is present within you or has come upon you. Right, though there may be counterfeit, I'm talking about genuine here, that, the genuine signs and the genuine gifts of the Holy Spirit. Now, I think I'm just kind of working this out now there's a little bit. There's an obedience component to the gifts of the Spirit. Right, there's a stewardship element to that as well. I'm sure there's, maybe I'm again there's probably stewardship to the fruit as well, but there's stewardship to the gifts in that there's elements of obedience. Like you have to choose a lot of times, do I? Do I listen to the prompting of the holy spirit? Well, how do I know if it's him? You know those kinds of things, yeah, so I would say again those are fruit, fruit, yeah, these are, these are things that happen. Yeah, uh, because of life in and with Christ.
Speaker 2:Yeah, agreed, Like it's a fruit of the Holy Spirit's presence and activity in your life. Like to take self-control, for instance. I can behave in a self-controlled way. I can pretend a version of self-control that looks very similar to the fruit of the Spirit. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:But the small amount of striving, or even the lack of striving, in the Holy Spirit, fruit of self-control, mm-hmm. Spirit, fruit of self-control. That is a, that is a symptom, like the freedom in, in the, in the fruit of this, in the holy spirit's version of self-control. Yeah, the freedom of it is a symptom that it's, that it's good and it's good fruit as opposed to my striving, white-knuckling myself in self-control ends up producing bad fruit in my life. That's the pretend, that's the counterfeit version. And probably for every fruit of the Spirit.
Speaker 2:So it is the. It's the evidence of the fruit of the Spirit. And just to kind of connect a few dots here again, jesus said if I do this by the power of the Spirit, then the kingdom has come amongst you. So it's this thing of the. We call it eternal life because scripture calls it eternal life, but it's God, it's life the way it should be, it's life brought back to normal. It's the life of the kingdom, yeah, of god on earth as it is in heaven. It's what we're called into and it it requires not just learning to behave a certain way, but it requires the presence of the holy spirit. Um, and so I love.
Speaker 2:I love how Paul writes to churches in two different cities, ephesus and Colossians, and he emphasizes a similar thing in both letters. Toward the end of the letter he talks about them getting together and singing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs together and encouraging each other. And in Ephesians he talks about don't be drunk on wine but be filled with the Spirit, and he emphasizes the Spirit. And then in Colossians I think it's in Colossians 3, is a similar passage, but in Colossians he emphasizes the Word of Christ. So he says the same kind of encourage each other with psalms, hymns, spiritual songs, as you gather together. And he says same kind of encourage each other with psalms, hymns, spiritual songs as you gather together, and he says and let the word of Christ dwell in you richly.
Speaker 2:So it's the word and it's the spirit. It's like this. We need both. We need the relationship of moving with the spirit and we need the truth of the word. But it's all about the presence of the kingdom. It's signs that point to no. This is a for real thing. There's a kingdom of darkness that wants to lock people up in pain and in bondage and keep them there. He wants to keep us trapped. And there is a kingdom of God that has come in, and Jesus, of course, is the champion of the kingdom of God. But the salvation is that we have been delivered from the domination of the kingdom of darkness, brought into the kingdom of the son he loves, and it is.
Speaker 2:It's going to take a lifetime and hey let's just be honest it's going to take eternity to continue to explore yeah like how amazing that kingdom really is.
Speaker 1:Yeah I just I, I think, I let me just see if I can pull out a thread here a little bit is that like this, this idea of like white knuckle knuckling and just the awareness that, hey, the fruit of the spirit is not evident in me? You know, in a specific area, whether it's patience or, you know, self-control, or love or whatever.
Speaker 2:Why am I acting out? Why do I get so mad? And I?
Speaker 1:would say that that produces a desire in us because like okay, so in community, uh, we would have a measure of like okay, so there, that can produce shame in people, like right or or well, yeah, shame that leads to hiding, and I think sometimes that it's like we can hide by, dare I say. Here's a statement we can hide by white knuckling, right. So I'm going to be more loving right and I'm going to do a loving. The thing that I think is loving all the while inside of me is a thing that yeah you know what I'm saying?
Speaker 1:like there's churning, yeah you're churning, and yet all right. So there is a thing I mean again, like when you look at that situation, you, you go, okay, well, that's all right, but yet we can hide a little bit in some of those things by maybe the faking it kind of deal.
Speaker 1:And again I'm going to say I think the Lord can use that. And again, sometimes those are choices. But I think there was a thing that I was thinking of just being aware of, like, okay, here's all the ways that I was fault, that I'm falling short and I'm. You know, I think a lot of times people are hesitant, but I to admit this, but you know, we're all kind of painfully aware of all the ways that we're falling short right, whether that's Painful is a good word.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, painfully aware Just aware of, like, whether that's just weakness, dysfunction, sin, those kinds of things we're all painfully aware of, like the ways in which we do not measure up, yeah, and how we sort of move through life. Aware of those things, oh man. And again there's a, and I think that's why we need repentance, that's why we need forgiveness.
Speaker 1:That's why the Lord's Prayer is like there's forgiveness, not too far into the Lord's Prayer. But I think I don't know the point I was trying to make, but I think it's like the pressure. I don't know the point I was trying to make, but I just I think it's like the pressure. It's about the hiding, the desire in humanity to make it look like we have it all together and not being just have a measure of just whether it's humility that just to say I don't have it all together. Okay, let's give grace to one another, you know, those kinds of things. The messiness of all, all of that, I think, is just the tendency to want to hide, the tendency to want to project holiness, the, the, the tendency to want to project love, patience, those kinds of things oh man and again, I think it's not that.
Speaker 1:it's not that it's bad to hate someone in your heart. Well, actually it is bad to hate someone in your heart and look them in the eye and say something God wants to deal with the thing that's going on in the heart right, and so in a little bit, maybe we're, maybe I'll say this, maybe we're sort of like we're lengthening the process issue, but my failure to acknowledge the fact that I hate you is delaying the hand of God in that space, in my life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, very much, whether that's patience, whether that's self-control, my failure to acknowledge the thing that's actually going on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, do you know what I'm saying? I do, and your expression is so accurate that we are all painfully aware of the ways we fall short. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so what we do with that pain matters, that God cares about that pain. He cares that it's painfully, that we are painfully aware of how we fall short. We think God cares about us falling short. Yes, we feel God cares about man. I wish you would stop falling short. And we feel like there's this he's very stern and reactionary and heavy handed about it, when God really would like to minister to the fact that you're painfully aware of that Right. Aware of that right like yeah, because he, he knows that if you push that painful awareness, down with good behavior.
Speaker 2:It's it's going to pop up somewhere else. Totally you're going to act out in a different way it's going to bring more destruction on your life. Yeah, it's going to disconnect you more and more from the new creation that you are in christ. Yeah, where, where, if? If I'm aware that I've fallen short, god's desire is not that I'm painfully aware, and push that down yeah, he wants me to bring that pain to him yeah for sure and say, ah yeah, I need some healing right, I need some help.
Speaker 1:It's allowing it's, allowing him into those places, right it's coming to him and saying this is my junk, this is my mess, you know, I know, so I'm not gonna try and hide. Here I am and I invite you, Jesus, into this place of my dysfunction, my sin, my pain my whatever all that is. That's the means of like, that's part of abiding right, Like where we actually don't close him off from any part of our life.
Speaker 2:Right, when we're ministering to people and healing prayer, really we're helping them in a priestly role. We're helping them to invite Jesus into those painful areas, areas where they're in pain or they're locked up in a dark place. They're saying Jesus, come into this dark place, come into this painful place by your mercy and just be here with me, without my trying to justify myself. Come in here, help me to understand what's going on. Help me to understand. What do you want me to know here? Why am I doing this? What do you want me to know here? Why am I doing this? And you can't?
Speaker 2:So you know and I was thinking about the point of our conversation recording this, the hearing God component. You know we can't. Really we are shutting our ears to God. When we mask our painful awareness with good behavior, yeah, agreed. When we slap a smile on our face and we say what we're supposed to say and show up in the way we're supposed to show up, yeah, all the while churning and pain on the inside, yes, we can't hear god that will block our ears.
Speaker 2:Yes to hearing god. God never speaks to me it's like well, you know well, you know there's a good chance that there's a good chance that there's something in your life where you are disappointed with yourself, you're in pain. There's some place you're trying to cover with good behavior, especially to the sincere follower of Jesus. So, because you see this all the time, people who love Jesus sincerely, they believe the gospel, they're surrendered to him yeah and yet there's these.
Speaker 2:They've fallen short. They're painfully aware of it. Yeah, whatever, whatever and they think god wants them to just behave better. Yeah, that's going to block them from hearing god. When, when, we're willing to say I, I'm inviting you into that place of pain and darkness in my life. I'm going to trust you with that. Wow, it's amazing how quickly you start to hear him.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because that awareness can lead to discouragement and I imagine there's myriads of people that have walked away from the Lord because of that painful awareness.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 2:I think I just can't do this. Yeah, I can't do it.
Speaker 1:Well, I think the funny thing is, as I was just thinking here as you're talking, I think the solution is to give up, but it's a different kind of give up. It's two different kinds of give up. The giving up that comes from discouragement is that this is impossible. I can't do this so I'm not gonna try and I'm gonna do this without I'm walking away from God, the other giving up is like it's impossible. I can't do this. Help, help God. One is walking away from God, the other giving up is running to God.
Speaker 1:Yes, that I cannot do this. You must do this in me and I refuse to. I keep coming back to you with my giving up. I can't produce the fruit of the Spirit in my own life, I can't produce holiness in my own life, so my giving up causes me to run to God rather than run from. So, confronted with the painful, you're, dare I say, confronted with the painful awareness that we can't measure up, we're so messy, all of that stuff. The end result, at some point for the believer, is giving up. The question is, what kind of giving up? Are you going to be the one that gives up because of disappointment and walks away from the Lord, or gives up and runs to God?
Speaker 1:and say I can't do this you have to help me and again, I think the fruit of that, really, literally, the fruit of that giving up that causes you to run to God, is the fruit of the Spirit that, as we consistently give up and we run to God, then he produces that fruit. And it's true, that fruit, and you know it's true, like I. I think you know both you and I could say that we've seen that, uh, in our lives play out, right it was like, okay, well, I'm not different.
Speaker 1:I'm not. I'm not the same as I'm different than I was five years ago or yeah 10 years ago.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love it. You know Jesus. You know Jesus said that man doesn't live by bread alone. But on every word that comes from the mouth of God, it's like I don't think I could claim one day in my life of following Jesus to say that day was a good day because I was a good listener, like I would. I would have to give credit to the God who never stopped speaking to me, right Like it's. It's the fact that God pursues me that I have that anything good comes of my life. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so the subtle little dynamic I don't know what you would call it in literary terms, but this dynamic that you know the conviction of the Holy Spirit. Is that a blessing or is that a problem in my life? Well, maybe both. But if it wasn't for the conviction of the Holy Spirit, I wouldn't awaken to the fact that I need to give up and surrender and repent. But the conviction of the Holy Spirit doesn't feel like mercy. It feels like my flesh can do a weird thing with the conviction of the Holy Spirit. It can turn it into beating myself up, as you often talk about. I can take a big stick that I carry and beat myself with it.
Speaker 2:Right, but that thing of the Holy Spirit. Jesus said the Holy Spirit would convict the world of righteousness. There would be this convicting work of the Holy Spirit. This is just an example. I'm riffing on just this one thing, but it's an example of the wisdom of the kingdom that the Holy Spirit conviction can feel. It can make you feel miserable if you resist it, but it's actually meant to draw you into fellowship with him.
Speaker 2:It's a mercy, a convicting being convicted of my sin or whatever that something's off in my life is mercy from God to draw me, awaken me to who I really am. I'm really not a person who acts out. I'm really a child of God. I don't belong to myself, I'm not independent, I'm actually dependent on him. It's the life of actually walking in communion with God, hearing his voice, obeying him, is much more intricate and profound than we would imagine. So I guess all of that to say God's agenda with us is never shame Correct. God's agenda for us is fellowship deeper love with him.
Speaker 2:It's maturity, it's why do we want to hear God? We want to hear God so we can mature in him and so that we can grow in the communion that's possible for us and all of that to. I guess you know we've taken a good journey in this conversation, like we always do, like we always do, but maybe, maybe, from for me just kind of loop back around to my own thoughts here. I loved the prayer room this morning because we were praying into something that we're all so used to baptism you know, and, and it led us to talking about the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and what does?
Speaker 2:it mean for the Holy Spirit to be moving. Yeah, that the kingdom, like the signs that the kingdom is amongst us, because we heal and do this stuff in the power of the spirit yeah though. Those are signs that the kingdom of god is amongst us, like the kingdom that is going to be reality, like it is reality, but there will come a day when that's all that anybody will experience is the kingdom of god, there won't be a kingdom of darkness to experience at all, like right now.
Speaker 2:We're in this in-between time Lots of hassles, lots of whatever and we are wise when we surrender. It's like God wants to bring signs that his kingdom is here and it's reigning through my life. That's what he really wants. That's why he designed me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, for sure, and I think some of that is like this is actually being a part of. This is what it means to be a part of the mission of god, right like it's not it is yes, like it isn't just talking it's demonstration. Yep, right, and that's clearly in the bible too. Right like that. The you know it's first corinthians. It's my favorite because it's my birthday, it's first corinth, it's first corinthians for first corinthians 420.
Speaker 1:Right, yes, and among us, amongst other things, it's right that paul says the kingdom of god is not a matter of talk, but it's a matter of power, right, and you know, and it's like it, and it's commissioning, like when Jesus commissioned the 72 to go out. He said go and heal the sick and then declare the kingdom of.
Speaker 2:God is among you.
Speaker 1:He actually, if you read it in the Gospels, he actually the demonstration of the kingdom preceded the declaration of the kingdom of the Gospel, and so I think that is something that every believer, at some level, needs to continue to grapple with. That's why I mean again, that's the challenge of every believer, as I believe, is that how do we steward the gifts that God has given to us? I mean, it starts with obedience, but I think these are great questions because every believer sort of wrestles with.
Speaker 1:Okay, so here's the thing that's written in the word here's a gift, whether that's miracles, whether that's tongues, or whether that's prophecy or whatever. Words of knowledge, those kinds of things, or generosity, I don words of knowledge, those kinds of things, or, uh, generosity, I don't know, like you know, those kinds of things. Um, we grapple with this, this not yet piece. Okay, so here's the thing. We and you know, this is one of my pet peeves- is that is, that we build silos.
Speaker 1:Of my pet peeves is that we build silos over the way that the gifts are expressed through us. Oh, yes, meaning that this is my gift, or your gift is not my gift, or I don't do these things? Right, right, that's not my gift.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And I kind of bristle at that, because there's a couple little scripture verses that sort of poke at that as a bit of a polemic.
Speaker 1:But if you read the tail end of 1 Corinthians 12, and then the first part of 1 Corinthians 14, it does a pretty good skewer job of that silo mentality. I tend to think that all the gifts are available to me simply because the Holy Spirit lives inside of me. Right? If I remove the gift from like, if I disconnect the gift from the Holy Spirit, then I can say, all right, well, maybe that's true, but the living God, who I barely understand, right.
Speaker 1:Right, and you know. But I have seen move and power, but he lives inside of me, right, right. And that has to mean not just something, it has to mean everything Right, right. And that has to mean not just something, it has to mean everything Right.
Speaker 1:And so why would I restrict, based on my experience, Because, again, we shouldn't elevate our experience above the word of God, but we do. That's a thing that we tend to do. Yes, but we do. That's a thing that we tend to do. So we slide off into this thinking of like okay, well, I have yet to give a prophetic word that has come to pass, or I have yet to pray for the sick and have them recover. So therefore I'm not good at it.
Speaker 1:So therefore that's not my gift, my gift is hospitality or helps or something along those lines, something a little bit safer, right when I think that I just don't draw those lines. Sure.
Speaker 2:Yes, I like that.
Speaker 1:Or Paul says, for the sake of, if you haven't looked it up already, at the tail end of 1 Corinthians 12, paul goes, like he does a very self-aware thing, like are all of you this or that? Do all of you work in miracles, those kinds of things? I think the answer that he's trying to get at is no, we don't all do all the things. And then he has there's a little verse right after that where he says so, depending on your translation. So boil over with passion for the higher gifts. So he says it Okay. So is this true? Like, if we take a snapshot of any church, are all the church, is every church, everyone from every church, operating in all the gifts of the Spirit? I think we can healthfully answer and accurately answer no.
Speaker 1:Same would be true of my life. Same would be true of King's Church, right? The answer is no to that. However, paul's immediate encouragement says so, boil over with passion, eagerly desire the higher gifts. And then if you look at 1 Corinthians 14, it says he comes right out of the love chapter and he goes. So, pursue love, eagerly desire the gifts of the Spirit. So he's saying guys, eagerly desire this, don't build walls. Right.
Speaker 1:Like if someone you know, don't build silos, yeah Right. And I think that at the, I think ultimately. Ultimately, the fruit of the Holy Spirit's you know, the evidence of the Holy Spirit's existence, like dwelling within you, has to look like power, and that's power to live a holy life, but also power to do things that Jesus did.
Speaker 2:Right yeah, love it, love it. Anyway, hey, probably our time's about up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a good place to land the plane. Do you want to?
Speaker 2:I would love it if you'd pray for us, uh, about the mission of god, like just yeah, like that would that would be our thing, that would consume us and however, however, I, I would appreciate being prayed for along that line to keep the main thing, the main thing. Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 1:Well, if you made it to the end of the podcast, maybe if you want to just close your eyes wherever you are, maybe if you're driving that's a bad idea, but at least posture your heart to receive.
Speaker 1:I'm just going to pray for us that we would experience more of God and that we would just have grace to receive all that he has for us. So just, father, we come before you. Just thank you for this time. Thank you for this conversation, lord and God. I just pray, lord right now. Lord, we just acknowledge, lord, that your kingdom is meant to be advanced.
Speaker 1:Lord, with holy people like in and through holy people, with your power at work in us and through us, god. So we just acknowledge that and, god, I just pray right now God, would you come upon us, your people, in a fresh, new way, even in this moment, god Lord, that you would come and that you would fill us and that you would overflow, that you would clothe us in power, a new and a fresh God. It doesn't matter how you come, it just matters that you come.
Speaker 2:Lord, and so it just matters.
Speaker 1:Lord, that you do the work that you want to do in and through us, god, and so I just pray for an encounter, lord. I pray for a fresh encounter, god, in your people, lord, and just for us here in this moment, lord, would you do that in your mercy and your kindness, lord? We just say Lord, it's our joy to ask because it's your joy to give.
Speaker 1:Lord, and so we just bless you, god, and we just say thank you, lord, for all that you are to us and through us, lord, and we bless you, jesus' name, amen.
Speaker 2:Amen and amen. Thanks, that was fun. Fun. Have a great day.
Speaker 1:Well, that's a wrap on this episode of the Hearing God podcast. It has been a privilege to have you as our honored guest. Until next time.
